Jareth Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Such a basket case of a country. Always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Name Is Death Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) Those are fighting words from the founder of the band Rapeman. Edited June 24, 2022 by His Name Is Death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Voters in the certain US states don’t want legalised abortion laws. I fundamentally do not agree with them but why should their democratic wishes be overruled? The Supreme Court ruling does not make a judgement either way, it only gives states the power to enact laws as their voters see fit. Surely the battle is to convince voters in those states to willingly allow abortion, not to over rule their wishes and make them do what the other states do against their (nutty) voters wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Name Is Death Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Voters in the certain US states don’t want legalised abortion laws. I fundamentally do not agree with them but why should their democratic wishes be overruled? The Supreme Court ruling does not make a judgement either way, it only gives states the power to enact laws as their voters see fit. Surely the battle is to convince voters in those states to willingly allow abortion, not to over rule their wishes and make them do what the other states do against their (nutty) voters wishes. I think that's putting a lot of misplaced faith in voters' willingness to have their minds changed or moderated once they've staked their flag on a particular position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Voters in the certain US states don’t want legalised abortion laws. I fundamentally do not agree with them but why should their democratic wishes be overruled? The Supreme Court ruling does not make a judgement either way, it only gives states the power to enact laws as their voters see fit. Surely the battle is to convince voters in those states to willingly allow abortion, not to over rule their wishes and make them do what the other states do against their (nutty) voters wishes. Based on that logic, do you believe contraception, gay and mixed race marriage and same sex sex to be state made decisions too? Because as written by Clarence Thomas, this ruling sets precedent for those too. Edited June 24, 2022 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Also both pence (2024 candidate) and McCarthy (head of the GOP in the house) have said this is the first step in outlawing it completely. It’s not entirely in good faith to claim this is fine be sure it’s passing it to states to decide. It’s clearly a coup to enforce it at the federal level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: Based on that logic, do you believe contraception, gay marriage and same sex sex to be state made decisions too? Because as written by Clarence Thomas, this ruling sets precedent for those too. It’s just a basic question of democracy isn’t it. You either allow people to vote for things they believe are important to them (whether you personally agree or disagree) or you over rule them and tell them you know better and the voters should just stay quiet put up with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 24, 2022 1 minute ago, LondonLax said: It’s just a basic question of democracy isn’t it. You either allow people to vote for things they believe are important to them (whether you personally agree or disagree) or you over rule them and tell them you know better and the voters should just stay quiet put up with it. "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, LondonLax said: It’s just a basic question of democracy isn’t it. You either allow people to vote for things they believe are important to them (whether you personally agree or disagree) or you over rule them and tell them you know better and the voters should just stay quiet put up with it. Why have elections at all? Rule by referendum. Sounds like a good plan in your utopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Also both pence (2024 candidate) and McCarthy (head of the GOP in the house) have said this is the first step in outlawing it completely. It’s not entirely in good faith to claim this is fine be sure it’s passing it to states to decide. It’s clearly a coup to enforce it at the federal level Considering how much money these words removed put into fighting Al Qaeda and Isis, they sure want to live in a backwords theocratic hellhole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Name Is Death Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, LondonLax said: It’s just a basic question of democracy isn’t it. You either allow people to vote for things they believe are important to them (whether you personally agree or disagree) or you over rule them and tell them you know better and the voters should just stay quiet put up with it. You say this as if there's no inherent value behind certain legal, ethical and social principles, such as rights to birth control and a same-sex relationship, and that ultimately these concepts are all just fads being thrown about by the prevailing wind. Should legislators just shrug if the 'will of the people' ends up damaging a lot of people's lives? Edited June 24, 2022 by His Name Is Death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Abortions will always be legal there . They will just have to wait until the seventh year of pregnancy and send the kid to school. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Just now, StefanAVFC said: Why have elections at all? Rule by referendum. Sounds like a good plan in your utopia. As an interesting aside, I believe that is what the Swiss do. Getting back on topic though, US states do have elections for a representative state democracy. If the voters of a state believe in something and vote in a specific government representatives to enact that, but are then told they are not allowed to do it because other states have told them they are not allowed to, is that democratic? If we take another example. If a region like Scotland wants to stay in the EU and Scotland’s voters all vote passionately on that basis, but are forced to leave the EU because a majority of voters in other states outside of Scotland voted to take them out, is that democratic? If voters in Missouri passionately believe in criminalising abortion but are forced to legalise it because a majority of voters in other states have told them they have to, is that democratic? At what point do we draw the line on what is considered ‘democratic’? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy7211 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 So in the last few days 'Murica has made it lawful to walk around a hugely popular metropolitan area with a concealed firearm and then go on to remove/strip rights from women. Way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Totally normal country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Just now, mjmooney said: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." "Although we may be wrong and might need to make amendments quite often down the line so leave some blank pages..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted June 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 24, 2022 In most states you can legally buy weed (which I’m all for) but soon you won’t be able to have an abortion? Madness. And I’m sure I read somewhere that the proposed punishments for having a termination were harsher than those for rape. You could get a ridiculous situation where some poor girl is made pregnant, finds a way to get rid and she’ll be in prison longer than her rapist. Crazy, crazy country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted June 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Brumerican said: "Although we may be wrong and might need to make amendments quite often down the line so leave some blank pages..." But some amendments are sacrosanct! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted June 24, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, LondonLax said: If voters in Missouri passionately believe in criminalising abortion but are forced to legalise it because a majority of voters in other states have told them they have to, is that democratic? At what point do we draw the line on what is considered ‘democratic’? The unpleasant truth is that a lot of the public are barely educated, spiteful and stupid, and things as fundamental as human rights shouldn't be based on the whims of mere popular opinion. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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