Kingman Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I think people pretend to rate Westwood, as it shows them to have some superior knowledge of the game. 'If you can't see what Westwood does you don't understand football' You get catagorised as a dinosaur, a Gary Megson, you cannot see the benefits of those incredible passing play. We had the same tripe with Bannan. The truth is, he is so average it is untrue. "The Emperor's New Clothes" is a short tale about two weavers who promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!" A vain Emperor who cares about nothing except wearing and displaying clothes hires two swindlers who promise him the finest, best suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "hopelessly stupid". The Emperor's ministers cannot see the clothing themselves, but pretend that they can for fear of appearing unfit for their positions and the Emperor does the same. Finally the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor marches in procession before his subjects. The townsfolk play along with the pretense, not wanting to appear unfit for their positions or stupid. Then a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but continues the procession. Edited November 10, 2014 by Kingman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I'm not sure what you're having trouble with. I'm agreeing with you if anything. Ok, let me put it this way, by your logic Mile Jedinak is therefore of a better standard to Nemanja Matić because he has more tackles and interceptions. The original post I replied to was using Alonso's comments to justify Westwood's defensive stats and I was pointing out that his defensive contribution still holds up statistically despite that. As I have already made abundantly clear, defensive stats are not relative. It's not the case that better defensive-midfielders therefore have superior stats. Again as I've previously claimed, Westwood plays in one of the most defensive, behind-the-ball teams in the league, so if he was half-decent in that department, he'd actually rank higher than Alonso in that department. So no, I don't believe it was "pointless" bringing the latter's stats up. Nor was I implying that anybody was claiming Westwood was of Alonso's standard. Furthermore I wasn't attempting to create a new debate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure what you're having trouble with. I'm agreeing with you if anything.Ok, let me put it this way, by your logic Mile Jedinak is therefore of a better standard to Nemanja Matić because he has more tackles and interceptions. If that makes you feel better then great. But I quite clearly have said nothing of the sort, and I struggle to see how what I've posted can even remotely be interpreted that way. The original post I replied to was using Alonso's comments to justify Westwood's defensive stats and I was pointing out that his defensive contribution still holds up statistically despite that. As I have already made abundantly clear, defensive stats are not relative. It's not the case that better defensive-midfielders therefore have superior stats. Again as I've previously claimed, Westwood plays in one of the most defensive, behind-the-ball teams in the league, so if he was half-decent in that department, he'd actually rank higher than Alonso in that department. So no, I don't believe it was "pointless" bringing the latter's stats up. Nor was I implying that anybody was claiming Westwood was of Alonso's standard. Furthermore I wasn't attempting to create a new debate.Basically what you did was the equivalent of somebody quoting Ronaldo in the agbonlahor thread and me saying "yeah but Ronaldo gets more assists than gabby" It's not even worth making the comparison. By all means carry on but its a pretty pointless comparison. That's all I was saying. Edited November 10, 2014 by Stevo985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Except that there aren't Crystal Palace and West Brom players getting as many goals/assists as Ronaldo. But yeah, other than that, your analogy stands up perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 11, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) But I'm sure there are some stats where that is true. A crystal palace player might get more sideways passes or more tacklegoals or whatever. That's not my point. My point is nobody is comparing gabby agbonlahor with ronaldo, so there's no point even bringing it up. As there is no point (IMO) in comparing Westwood with alonso in this case. If you want to then carry on. But what are you proving? That Alonso is better? Great. We all know that. That's my point. Edited November 11, 2014 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I'm not sure what you're having trouble with. I'm agreeing with you if anything. Ok, let me put it this way, by your logic Mile Jedinak is therefore of a better standard to Nemanja Matić because he has more tackles and interceptions. The original post I replied to was using Alonso's comments to justify Westwood's defensive stats and I was pointing out that his defensive contribution still holds up statistically despite that. As I have already made abundantly clear, defensive stats are not relative. It's not the case that better defensive-midfielders therefore have superior stats. Again as I've previously claimed, Westwood plays in one of the most defensive, behind-the-ball teams in the league, so if he was half-decent in that department, he'd actually rank higher than Alonso in that department. So no, I don't believe it was "pointless" bringing the latter's stats up. Nor was I implying that anybody was claiming Westwood was of Alonso's standard. Furthermore I wasn't attempting to create a new debate. The Alonso link was posted to presumably point out that tackling is not as important a stat as some may think, and not to compare the 2 players. The fact that you compared his tackling stats to Westwood’s is perplexing and pointless, which is what Stevo was trying to point out. The bolded is ironic because nobody in this thread bar yourself is comparing Westwood to any other player. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Hugely overrated, pointless player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Hugely overrated, pointless player. Well that is not true considering many posters are critically discussing Westwood's ability on the forum, you would not expect so many people to be torn over his ability if he was "hugely overrated". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Hugely overrated, pointless player. Well that is not true considering many posters are critically discussing Westwood's ability on the forum, you would not expect so many people to be torn over his ability if he was "hugely overrated". I was more thinking along the lines of overrated by Lambert. Then again some people on here think he has the passing skills of Gerrard, the tackling of Makelle and the goal scoring of Lampard. Others think his below avaerage. I am in the latter camp as in my opinion he wouldn't get into any other Premier League side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted November 11, 2014 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Then again some people on here think he has the passing skills of Gerrard, the tackling of Makelle and the goal scoring of Lampard. Complete and utter fiction. Edited November 11, 2014 by Stevo985 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The Alonso link was posted to presumably point out that tackling is not as important a stat as some may think, and not to compare the 2 players. The fact that you compared his tackling stats to Westwood’s is perplexing and pointless, which is what Stevo was trying to point out. The bolded is ironic because nobody in this thread bar yourself is comparing Westwood to any other player. You simply don't understand, or you are being deliberately obtuse (which wouldn't surprise me at all on here). Alonso's comments were used to justify Westwood being a bad tackler yet he himself doesn't share such lowly stats in that regard. Defensive stats are not relative (not sure why I have to repeat this for the umpteenth time!), if you are a strong tackler then that will be reflected in your stats whether you are world-class or bang average and regardless of team you play for. So what was truly 'pointless' was to bring up his comments in the first place. No doubt you'll come up with a reply that ignores all that I have said but I don't think I can simplify it any more than that. So I'm done here. Good day to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) On the topic of him being hugely overrated, for me, he was. Some of the comments praising him especially over the summer were bordering on ridiculous. Over the last few weeks, I feel people who are pro Westwood have a much more balanced opinion of him, and there also seems to be more people or certainly more people being vocal, who see that he doesn't really offer a great deal in most games. Edited November 11, 2014 by Woodytom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 On the topic of him being hugely overrated, for me, he was. Some of the comments praising him especially over the summer were bordering on ridiculous. Over the last few weeks, I feel people who are pro Westwood have a much more balanced opinion of him, and there also seems to be more people or certainly more people being vocal, he see that he doesn't really offer a great deal in most games. At the moment, no-one offers a great deal in most games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) An interesting list of stats on hereisthecity.com I was one of those who at the start of the season put a lot of faith in Westwood and personally I think he's struggled a little this year and not really shown his best qualities, ball retention and incisive passing, however stats wise he certainly has contributed and it's difficult to look good when the guys in front of you are constantly making poor decisions. If Westwood plays a ball putting you 3 v 3 then he's done a good job in my opinion, especially as he plays so far back. I do think he's misplaced some passes that he should have done better with (the killer pass perhaps, or ones leaving us 3v2, or 2v1), and perhaps he's been caught on the ball more often than I'd have liked but in this current group of players he definitely has attributes we need. Whether he can step up and become the silent legend we hope well that's up to him, but he isn't playing with top stars and I think that heaps pressure on him to do something special, he's a unique player in our squad and I'd argue in the English game, it's a shame people are so quick to write him off while ignoring his role and others contributions. Edited November 12, 2014 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Not the flimsy 'chances created' stat again! I don't think the team in general have had 17 chances all season, let alone Westwood creating that many by himself. Edited November 12, 2014 by Isa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Unique in the English game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 People were wrongly critical of him in the Stoke game, if you analyse Westwood's performance vs Stoke closely he created a lot of chances only to be let down by our offensive play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) The statistical definition of a chance is any pass that directly leads to an attempt on goal, be that on target or not. That's the only way they can quantify it. Edited November 12, 2014 by Isa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roonst83 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Until we have an effective three players ahead of our midfield then we will always fail to witness the true potential of our middle three. Our attacking players are so inept it's unreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM3000 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 He takes corners and freekicks, that's why it's so high. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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