GENTLEMAN Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 This is Westy at his best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H5pHbgb9mM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 A good midfielder imposes himself on a game, has a passing range further than 5 yards, make forward passes time and time again successfully, , they can dictate the tempo, they can control the game. I have never saw Westwood do any of this, he is, and has been, a key component of a team that doesn't keep the ball, never controls games home or away. We have this mentality when he picks the ball up and swtiches it to a flank to praise him for his vision, it is basic. Everything he does it basic,there are players at Southampton for example Cork and Davis that do this for fun and more. the fact we look at him and some kind of technique driven football is sad. Like the players mentioned before, Barry, Milner etc they are proper footballers. Just wrong to be honest. There are many different types of midfielder - their roles vary so much that to bracket them all under "impose on a game, always pass forwards, dictate tempo, control the game" is straight up wrong. What Westwood does that the rest of our team is almost entirely incapable of is not panic on the ball and look to retain possession. Delph is a more exciting player, makes forwards runs, but contributes roughly the same amount of end goal that Ashley Westwood does. Yet who do people rate more highly in general? Delph, right? The thing is that the things you see as "basic" aren't done well enough and often enough on the whole. For example, Westwood's passing (which most people praise him for) really isn't that good in terms of pass completion % and it looks like a really basic thing to do. However, if you look at how well he reads the game - interceptions, blocks, clearances etc - he does relatively well. These are the basics that are often overlooked; no "better fan" bollocks, just things that most people (myself included) don't take into account because they're not clearly visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Not true. Everybody notices when a defensive-midfielder makes a strong defensive contribution. In fact, that's the fundamental thing you expect from somebody in that role. The reason nobody notices such from Westwood is because he really isn't very good off the ball. He rarely ever tackles and his interception stats are average at best. And when you consider that he plays as the defensive-midfielder in one of the lowest possession sides in the league (which means we defend for more of the game than many other teams), that makes it all the worse. Not to mention that he usually fails to track opposition midfield runners as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Not true. Everybody notices when a defensive-midfielder makes a strong defensive contribution. In fact, that's the fundamental thing you expect from somebody in that role. The reason nobody notices such from Westwood is because he really isn't very good off the ball. He rarely ever tackles and his interception stats are average at best. And when you consider that he plays as the defensive-midfielder in one of the lowest possession sides in the league (which means we defend for more of the game than many other teams), that makes it all the worse. Not to mention that he usually fails to track opposition midfield runners as well. I think his interception stats would be pretty good compared to most - contrary to your opinion, I think he reads the game well off the ball - but his tackling stats would be awful. Of course, this doesn't work well if he's to be used as a defensive midfielder because the least you'd expect from them is to be able to tackle . For me, he's not a defensive midfielder and this was one the main reason why signing Sanchez was exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I think his interception stats would be pretty good compared to most - contrary to your opinion, I think he reads the game well off the ball - but his tackling stats would be awful. Of course, this doesn't work well if he's to be used as a defensive midfielder because the least you'd expect from them is to be able to tackle . This season he averages 1.8 interceptions per game. In comparison; Craig Gardner averages 3.1, Capoue 2.6, Ki 2.7, Cattermole 2.7, Jones (Burnley) 2.6, Colback 2.5 etc. And the list goes on. You have to scroll down a bit to find Westwood who stands at joint 64th - i.e. average. For me, he's not a defensive midfielder and this was one the main reason why signing Sanchez was exciting. I agree but the manager unfortunately thinks different. If the last game is anything to go by, then it appears that Westwood has returned to his usual role with Sánchez pushed further up. This despite Lambert making it clear that he had only signed Sánchez to play an orthodox defensive-midfield role, the role he has played throughout his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 I think people pretend to rate Westwood, as it shows them to have some superior knowledge of the game. 'If you can't see what Westwood does you don't understand football' You get catagorised as a dinosaur, a Gary Megson, you cannot see the benefits of those incredible passing play. We had the same tripe with Bannan. The truth is, he is so average it is untrue. What a load of absolute shite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I think people pretend to rate Westwood, as it shows them to have some superior knowledge of the game. 'If you can't see what Westwood does you don't understand football' You get catagorised as a dinosaur, a Gary Megson, you cannot see the benefits of those incredible passing play. We had the same tripe with Bannan. The truth is, he is so average it is untrue. What a load of absolute shite Agreed, calling him average is overstating his capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 Hilarious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Xabi Alonso says tackling is not a quality but a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Xabi Alonso says tackling is not a quality but a last resort. Helps when you play in a team who average 70% possession. Though saying that, his tackling and interception numbers even with Bayern are still above and beyond anything 'Westy' has produced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I don't think anybody is arguing that Westwood is anywhere near as good as Alonso Edited November 10, 2014 by Stevo985 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Xabi Alonso says tackling is not a quality but a last resort. Clearly never heard of the mantra "**** 'em up, get into 'em" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I don't think anybody is arguing that Westwood is anywhere near as good as Alonso so its a bit silly to be dragging out stats like that. Not really. Tackling/interception stats are not necessarily relevent to how good the player in question is in general. As already stated above, they are actually favorable to players who play in more defensive teams. For example, Mile Jedinak has the best stats of any midfielder in the league in this regard. Anyway, the context of my reply is self-evident I think. Alonso's comments were being used to excuse Westwood's inability to tackle and I was merely pointing out that despite this, Alonso himself still has respectable tackling numbers. Edited November 10, 2014 by Isa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said there. I just mean saying Alonso gets more interceptions or whatever than Westwood is a bit pointless because nobody is trying to say Westwood is anywhere near that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said there. I just mean saying Alonso gets more interceptions or whatever than Westwood is a bit pointless because nobody is trying to say Westwood is anywhere near that level. As already explained, defensive stats are not exclusive to the best players in the best teams. So your reasoning that Westwood cannot match Alonso is flawed. Look at the list I did earlier, all those players intercept more than him. We don't need to have a player of Alonso's calibre to be able to expect our defensive-midfielder to produce those sort of numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunnski Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I still don't rate him in a defensive sense, he has lots to improve on but I think he has tried to get stuck in a lot more so far this season. As for attacking, he is the only player in our team capable of an accurate first time pass and he sets up so much of our good play by thinking quickly and executing the required pass. I don't get all this 'he has to impose himself on games', I mean he doesn't have the build or the height to be bullying players off the ball. If Sanchez can keep up his good work in a DMF role then I'm sure that his job will be to impose himself in midfield thus allowing our other midfielders to concentrate on us improving our play when we have the ball instead of all 3 midfielders having to be more defensive than anything in most games as it currently stands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) Think it is very difficult to build an effective midfield 3 or 4 when the components are Delph/Cleverly/Westwood/Sanchez. They just don't complement each other very well. Westwood is an ok player, Cleverly is possibly slightly better in some aspects. Deplh is a better midfielder but he's neither creative nor imposing, but when fit a given in the team. Sanchez should imo be in the team simply because he offers something diffrent from the other midfielders. So when they are all fit it's between Westy and Cleverly and either way it won't work very well. And the same goes for playing Cleverly on the left. We soo badly miss a creative playmaker, especially when we have Gabby and Andi moving in from the flanks offering very little but workrate to the team. I agree with your main point, if not all of your descriptions. Is it just an accident Lambert brought in Cleverly, who is quite similar to Westwood? Was it just because Cleverly was available? Or is he merely a back up plan in case Delph leaves? I think it's something like this, it doesn't make much sense otherwise. Edited November 10, 2014 by AVTuco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said there. I just mean saying Alonso gets more interceptions or whatever than Westwood is a bit pointless because nobody is trying to say Westwood is anywhere near that level. As already explained, defensive stats are not exclusive to the best players in the best teams. So your reasoning that Westwood cannot match Alonso is flawed. Look at the list I did earlier, all those players intercept more than him. We don't need to have a player of Alonso's calibre to be able to expect our defensive-midfielder to produce those sort of numbers. I have no comment to make on your other post. I was commenting on the post where you compared Alonso's stats with Westwood's, which I feel is a pretty pointless comparison as nobody is saying he's anywhere near that standard. I'm not interested in the debate you seem to want me to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 *Bangs head against wall* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2014 I'm not sure what you're having trouble with. I'm agreeing with you if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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