All-Purpose Religion Thread

[fruitvilla]

8 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

I guess I'd have to hear what NOT respecting a faith that you regard as silly or even dangerous looks like.

Laughing at certain worldviews might be fall into that category. eg flat earthers. How seriously do we want to take the concept of angels? Arguing against say religious beliefs could considered disrespectful. Pointing out the contradictions is in Biblical texts is one example. The Jesus and Mo cartoons are an excellent example (google Jesus and Mo). And speaking of cartoons ...Islam and Mohammed, are cartoons OK?

16 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

How does that translate into law or government policy? 

Well if were to say I think all three Abrahamic  religions are "crap", why would that require government intervention? If I were to criticize Islam would that require some kind of censure? I think not. 

22 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

I mean, belief in a liberal secular democracy is also a kind of belief.

Certainly is. And if someone were to say it is crap, then I would listen to the arguments. People are sort doing that now ... in that some are going after the privileged old white philosophers. I don't respect those that do, but my old privileged white philosophies are not respected either.

As to trying to convert someone who is privately practicing their faith? We will never know. Some football coach marketing their faith on the field? I think a little derision could be in order. I must admit I wonder about footballers who cross themselves when starting a match.

[fruitvilla]

23 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

justify action that is immoral and/or criminal.

Where do you get immorality from? Who decides what is moral? Does morality even exist? (The concept does, but morality itself?) Is the concept of morality a perverted left over from our Abrahamic texts?

[Marka Ragnos]

7 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Laughing at certain worldviews might be fall into that category. eg flat earthers. How seriously do we want to take the concept of angels? Arguing against say religious beliefs could considered disrespectful. Pointing out the contradictions is in Biblical texts is one example. The Jesus and Mo cartoons are an excellent example (google Jesus and Mo). And speaking of cartoons ...Islam and Mohammed, are cartoons OK?

Well if were to say I think all three Abrahamic  religions are "crap", why would that require government intervention? If I were to criticize Islam would that require some kind of censure? I think not. 

Certainly is. And if someone were to say it is crap, then I would listen to the arguments. People are sort doing that now ... in that some are going after the privileged old white philosophers. I don't respect those that do, but my old privileged white philosophies are not respected either.

As to trying to convert someone who is privately practicing their faith? We will never know. Some football coach marketing their faith on the field? I think a little derision could be in order. I must admit I wonder about footballers who cross themselves when starting a match.

Totally on board, mate. Agree on virtually every point. We must be allowed to criticise and mock and satirize the **** out of stuff we think is stupid. I wouldn't want to live in a society where this (see below) wasn't allowed. Unfortunately, in America, these have become real active political issues because we have a Supreme Court that's beginning to help religious groups chip away at the separation of church and state in very dangerous ways.  

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Marka Ragnos

[Chindie]

On 20/06/2022 at 15:44, Chindie said:

Appeal going in as we speak.

This is desperately sad, but infuriating that vultures are swarming over a vulnerable family. What benefit is there for the mother to have the Christian Legal Centre capitalise on the suffering? The kid is dead. There's evidence there is no blood flow in his brain, there's signs of his brain is decaying. It must be difficult to accept, of course, which has my sympathies, but ultimately this only prolongs suffering of all involved.

Appeal has gone in favour of the hospital.

Almost certainly will go to the Court of Appeal next week.

Interesting the judge mentioned that the staff 'treating' him have become distressed by it. It must be very difficult for those medically trained to have to spend months carrying out procedures that they know are forlorn.

But the Christian Legal Centre has an agenda to push.

[Seal]

50 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

I respect you faith @Seal I appreciate your comments regarding the old testament. Its clearly a historically inaccurate text with outdated moralistic guidelines. 

The new testament is slightly better but it is still contradictory and historically questionable.  That does not bother me in the slightest as long as people who believe in it also live by a reasonable moral code.  

My problem is where people use their 1600 year old book as justification for behaviour that is questionable in a modern society.  If God is infallible and the Bible is the word of God, why is the Bible wrong in so many places? 

When I visited the Vatican I was amazed. I was amazed that any God would want that to be built and maintained instead of spending that wealth on supporting the poor and needy. 

But if your faith gives you comfort then who am I to question it?  I am sure that time will prove that some of the things I believe in are wrong. 

 

 

My answer (NOT OBJECTIVE, and not even something I am sure about) would be:

The Bible is designed (I suspect) to be deceptive (testament even means - test of the mind!). If the world is - as it claims to be the Devils. Then the Devil - who plays the role of the deceiver may well have had certain elements removed. There are something like 66 texts  removed, such as the Book of Enoch, or Jasher, that if you would include paint a very different picture overall of what the bible says. Furthermore the KJV edition (the first popular out of Latin bible) is translated very very badly almost deliberately. For instance one of the greatest Christian icons is the cross, and it is universally accepted that Christ was alleged to have died upon the cross. However, in actuality, Jesus was said to have been hanged from a tree (there is some explanation that I find unsatisfying that crucifix was translated from tree because tree meant any wooden structure). Literally the most iconic image of Christianity, the cross, is from a weird suspect translation. That is mad. I do not think the bible is the word of God, at least in that it has been chopped and  changed and translated terribly badly.

I personally am open to the idea that Christ was a man who existed. However I perhaps currently favour the idea that Christ is a state of consciousness obtainable by all. And the man in the book is allegorical. Christ said he was the truth, maybe we can all be Christ if we live in line with the truth. The New Testament admits that it is written in parables (ie it is not all truth, but stories designed to convey a greater meaning). I think taken the bible at its literal word is silly. But then I also think criticising the bible at its literal word is equally silly. 

This is a fairly lightweight but clear explanation of the gnostic creation myth:

https://gnosticismexplained.org/the-gnostic-creation-myth/

I also do think that the Vatican has much to do with Christianity, so much as the manipulation of what it is. I think the Vatican Library and its hoarding of texts (not only pertaining to Christianity, but all those confiscated during the inquisition, or pagan histories) is one of the greatest crimes against humanity. I would rather suggest that the Vatican has been strongly involved in the subversion of Christianity. 

I don't actually consider myself to have 'faith',  I think belief is the death of intelligence (or to be a lie) and I try and avoid beliefs (although I appreciate this is a belief!). So I don't believe per se in the bible. Instead I have suspicions and think that the only thing that I can confirm is what is inside me (and even that I am sceptical of). My suspicions include that this reality is fundamentally deceptive. That I can only really confirm what I feel and observe myself. And I find Christ/Christianity the most useful tool for navigating this reality I find myself. For me being a Christian is recognising the world is not a great place (there is some true beauty here) and trying to make it a better place. And for me that is what being saved is. It isn't a matter of faith. It is a matter of trying to be good. 

I have been through a road of being from a Christian upbringing, rejecting it and accepting the material world, then searching for something more real and finding Christ again, although very very differently from before. 

You are welcome to question me though. If you do a good question and I can't answer it I can tune myself accordingly. If I can answer it may be I had to learn more about things to answer it. There is nothing more enlightening that realising that you are horribly mistaken in something. 

"My problem is where people use their 1600 year old book as justification for behaviour that is questionable in a modern society." This problem is mega interesting and on point. I think in all situations people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Using a book to justify something is ceasing to take responsibility for something. However, I also think humans should be free to act differently from societal expectations. My personal rule is "do what you want so long as you do not harm anyone else or stop them from doing what they want". 

 

 

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Totally on board, mate. Agree on virtually every point. We must be allowed to criticise the **** out of stuff we think is stupid. I wouldn't want to live in a society where this wasn't allowed. Unfortunately, in America, these have become real active political issues because we have a Supreme Court that's beginning to help religious groups chip away at the separation of church and state in very dangerous ways.  

You have my sympathies, I live in BC which is, as provinces go, relatively Christianity lite. I read somewhere that over 50% are not Christian, though there are other faiths in this number but non believers are well represented. Twoofthe local churches closed down in my villages in the last year or so.

But things are slowly improving in the States.

[fruitvilla]

14 minutes ago, Seal said:

testament even means - test of the mind!

Do you have a reference for this?

23 minutes ago, Seal said:

people need to take responsibility for their own actions

OK ... do you mean that they maybe the proximate cause of an event or something else?

[ender4]

25 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

But things are slowly improving in the States.

Are they????

From the outside looking in, it’s seems that the USA has gone completely nuts over the last few years.

[fruitvilla]

3 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Are they????
From the outside looking in, it’s seems that the USA has gone completely nuts over the last few years.

If you look at things in terms of decades rather than years, I would say yes.

Stephen Pinker's Enlightenment Now and Factfullness by the late great Hans Rosling suggest yes. But I agree the last couple of years have been a step backwards.

[fruitvilla]

6 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'm not with the organised religion thing at all, but I defo think their are arguments for a " creator " , " creative energy " or " higher power ", Good/Evil, Dark energy etc 

To me this vague arm waving in the dark. It is an echo from our Abrahamic past culture.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

10 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

To me this vague arm waving in the dark. It is an echo from our Abrahamic past culture.

 

Thanks for bringing me into the thread!

[Sam-AVFC]

@JAMAICAN-VILLAN Firstly, apologies for my laziness in not cross thread quoting!

I never understood arguments along the lines of 'where did it all come from, it can't be from nothing' in support of religion, seeing as most religions assume an all-powerful sentient being did exactly that. Why is that more feasible than simple matter? 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

It should come as no surprise to read that I am atheist.  It’s wonderful being one.  You still get to celebrate Christmas, listen to hymns ,  walk around cathedrals and be nice to people.  But I digress………

I don’t believe in the Norse Gods.  I don’t believe they exist and I don’t believe that any teaching attributed to them can be trusted as applicable to the modern world.  Nor can I use them to justify my actions.  
 

Now read the last paragraph again but substitute Egyptian Gods for Norse Gods.  Then read it with Roman Gods.  The only difference between an atheist and a religious person is that an atheist considers that paragraph true for all gods whilst a religious person considers it true for 99.9% of gods. 
 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said:

@JAMAICAN-VILLAN Firstly, apologies for my laziness in not cross thread quoting!

I never understood arguments along the lines of 'where did it all come from, it can't be from nothing' in support of religion, seeing as most religions assume an all-powerful sentient being did exactly that. Why is that more feasible than simple matter? 

For me, it's a never ending question, then you ask, ok, so what is the source of the matter, and what is the source of that? Etc etc etc to infinity.

I'm not necessarily talking about any floating sky men or anything here.

Maybe the Universe itself is the " all powerful " entity? It's all energy and creation ain't it? 

Technically we are made of the universe.

Way too many things are precise for us to even be able to exist IMO. ( Although you could argue that it isn't actually precise, and we just evolved / adapted into our circumstance )

Alot of clues/theories via ancient civilizations as well.

Truth is, I don't think any of us really know anything, whether that be via science or religion.

At this point I'm even confusing myself. Lol

The likes of Graham Hancock do some really interesting work, check him out when you have a chance.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

 whilst a religious person considers it true for 99.9% of gods. 

 

It's interesting isn't it?

I always find it interesting when I see a religious debate, and people don't realise the irony / flaw of their argument.

I've seen debates where " Jesus Christ is the only way " is countered with " No, Muhammad / Allah is the only way ".

Whilst not realising that if you have that line of thinking, you can't actually be upset at the other person for basically thinking the EXACT same thing as you via their respective faith.

I always tell them that either someone is lying, or everybody is wrong.

Further more, if there is meant to only be " one god " then it would mean they both worship the same " God " and are just fighting over who worships that same " God " " correctly ". As well as debating which man made book or translation is more accurate 

[mjmooney]

12 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'm not necessarily talking about any floating sky men or anything here.

Maybe the Universe itself is the " all powerful " entity? It's all energy and creation ain't it? 

Even Richard Dawkins says that if you want to call that 'God', then fine, no problem. It's all the theology that people then somehow extrapolate from it that is superstitious nonsense. 

[Wainy316]

11 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Further more, if there is meant to only be " one god " then it would mean they both worship the same " God " and are just fighting over who worships that same " God " " correctly ". As well as debating which man made book or translation is more accurate 

Well yeah that is what the Abrahamic three are doing.  But then they have separate sects within themselves arguing which way to correctly practice  their ‘correct’ religion and interpret their ‘correct’ book.

[hogso]

I find Gnosticism absolutely fascinating. Largely due to having played tens of thousands of hours worth of JRPGs which take copious inspiration from it; the Xeno series and SMT Persona cheif amongst them.

Contrary to the link above, I actually thought the creation of the Demiurge by Sophia was due to Her causing Pleroma to overflow - the matter which overflowed is that which makes up our material world - because She was, well, a bit bored. 

[Follyfoot]

Jesus Saves……..

 

 

 

 

But Little buries the rebound 

[PussEKatt]

When you think about all the suffering,in the concentration camps in WW II and the suffering in the Ukraine now.God is not doing a very good job.Maybe its because they ate pork,or wore makeup,or ate meat on friday ,or countless other excuses.