All-Purpose Religion Thread

[Ingram85]

I didn’t even say it was exclusive to religion, of course it isn’t. It was just a throw away to the post I quoted. 

[Rugeley Villa]

10 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

You are missing the point ... which is there is (or appears to be) a much higher density of these sexual incidents in the clergy or those put in charge of our pastoral care. 

When a sports coach does it the media revel in it just as much.

It does seem that way yes , and as Limpid mentioned the shameful act of just brushing it under the carpet and moving the alleged abuser to a different region to commit further crimes . I’ve often wondered to myself how deep and how far back humanities relationship with child abuse goes . Seems to be very ingrained into the human race. 

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

You are missing the point ... which is there is (or appears to be) a much higher density of these sexual incidents in the clergy or those put in charge of our pastoral care. 

When a sports coach does it the media revel in it just as much.

I’d be interested in any actual research statistic you could find.

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

It does seem that way yes , and as Limpid mentioned the shameful act of just brushing it under the carpet and moving the alleged abuser to a different region to commit further crimes . I’ve often wondered to myself how deep and how far back humanities relationship with child abuse goes . Seems to be very ingrained into the human race. 

I’m pretty sure it’s gone on since day dot and it would have been far more prevalent than today.

It just wouldn’t have been reprimanded or reported on for a plethora of reasons.

[Sam-AVFC]

3 hours ago, limpid said:

Sports clubs don't claim to be acting on behalf of an all powerful deity who can punish a victim for eternity.

Come on Lawrence Bassini, complete the deal and prove this man wrong!

[Seal]

6 hours ago, mjmooney said:

No. They aren't. 

That was a joke. Not a very good one, but certainly not my worst. A mystic is someone who believes in truths beyond the intellect. Quantum physics is kind of that in a way. Astro physics relies on maths which is ultimately a numerical philosophy, and is in its own way contemplating things we cannot reach. Thus is kind of delving in truths beyond the intellect. Not to belittle those fields, however, they do for sure have their own mystic qualities. 

[fruitvilla]

32 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’d be interested in any actual research statistic you could find.

This is a valid question: and in my defense I did qualify my statement.

Here's a German study. And a relevant bit

With respect to institutional affiliations, our results show that sexual abuse is not a problem specific to Roman Catholic settings or to religiously affiliated settings in general, but rather that the risk to children is increased in any institution, regardless of affiliation.

The one thing that the study did not highlight was the religiosity of the abuser in the secular or non secular institution.

[fruitvilla]

35 minutes ago, Seal said:

Quantum physics is kind of that in a way

I disagree ... if it is beyond our intellect how have made incredible advances in our understanding?  Quantum phenomenon certainly are not intuitive, I will agree.  

35 minutes ago, Seal said:

Astro physics relies on maths which is ultimately a numerical philosophy, and is in its own way contemplating things we cannot reach.

This reminds of Auguste Comte quote in 1842:
Of all objects, the planets are those which appear to us under the least varied aspect. We see how we may determine their forms, their distances, their bulk, and their motions, but we can never known anything of their chemical or mineralogical structure; and, much less, that of organized beings living on their surface

Little did he know that the tools to get a really good head start on this problem had been developed a few years earlier.

38 minutes ago, Seal said:

Thus is kind of delving in truths beyond the intellect. Not to belittle those fields, however, they do for sure have their own mystic qualities. 

And here I will leave you with the words of the famous layer Clarence Darrow:

Chase after the truth like all hell and you’ll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails.

Edited July 17, 2022 by fruitvilla

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, limpid said:

Agreed. Sports clubs don't have policies of silently moving offenders to another region without punishment.

No the FA has no acknowledged policy of moving on paedophiles without punishment.

But individual clubs can decide to stay quiet on what happens in their ‘parish’. Look at the consequences of the Barry Bennel case, where no FA organised collusion or policy was found to exist, in the FA instigated investigation.

Eight professional clubs in England were called out for specific criticism in the 2018 football inquiry, including Aston Villa. Fifteen individuals were names, many of those fifteen dealing with children and youth players from multiple teams. Many more lower tier teams were named, Scottish teams were named. Dozens of people and clubs dealing with hundreds of minors.

On occasion when people were ‘suspected’ of **** the children they were supposed to be coaching, the police would suggest they were ‘moved on’. Clubs would tweek their rules so kiddie fiddlers were alone less often with kids.

This isn’t in any way to excuse or diminish the horrors that have happened in churches or anywhere. 

But I don’t think football is in any position of moral high ground here. 

 

[chrisp65]

14 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

This is a valid question: and in my defense I did qualify my statement.

Here's a German study. And a relevant bit

With respect to institutional affiliations, our results show that sexual abuse is not a problem specific to Roman Catholic settings or to religiously affiliated settings in general, but rather that the risk to children is increased in any institution, regardless of affiliation.

The one thing that the study did not highlight was the religiosity of the abuser in the secular or non secular institution.

 

My non researched ‘hunch’ would have been exactly that summary.

Some men are predatory and will use whatever access they can to get at their victims. That the Catholic Church was more organised in communities with a position of trust that could be abused simply allowed these men their access.

It’s a horrific crime and we mustn’t let our personal prejudices take our eye off the root cause just to ‘prove’ our personal prejudices. From my limited knowledge of the Catholic Church, I think they’ve dealt with the problem really spectacularly badly. So state authorities should step in and ‘help’ them sort out their shit. Just like they would if the problem was in gardening clubs or scouting.

I know that in this thread it would be a lot easier to suggest we stop paedos simply by being atheists.

[fruitvilla]

Just the abstract and not a large sample size

Those sex offenders who reported regular church attendance, a belief in supernatural punishment, and religion as important in their daily lives had more known victims, younger victims, and more convictions for sex offenses than the sex offenders who reported irregular or no church attendance and no or less intense allegiance to religious beliefs and practices.

...

This finding is consistent with a growing body of evidence that many sex offenders are also involved in general criminal activity.

 

[Seal]

2 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

I disagree ... if it is beyond our intellect how have made incredible advances in our understanding?  Quantum phenomenon certainly are not intuitive, I will agree.  

This reminds of Auguste Comte quote in 1842:
Of all objects, the planets are those which appear to us under the least varied aspect. We see how we may determine their forms, their distances, their bulk, and their motions, but we can never known anything of their chemical or mineralogical structure; and, much less, that of organized beings living on their surface

Little did he know that the tools to get a really good head start on this problem had been developed a few years earlier.

And here I will leave you with the words of the famous layer Clarence Darrow:

Chase after the truth like all hell and you’ll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails.

 

2 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

I disagree ... if it is beyond our intellect how have made incredible advances in our understanding?  Quantum phenomenon certainly are not intuitive, I will agree.  

This reminds of Auguste Comte quote in 1842:
Of all objects, the planets are those which appear to us under the least varied aspect. We see how we may determine their forms, their distances, their bulk, and their motions, but we can never known anything of their chemical or mineralogical structure; and, much less, that of organized beings living on their surface

Little did he know that the tools to get a really good head start on this problem had been developed a few years earlier.

And here I will leave you with the words of the famous layer Clarence Darrow:

Chase after the truth like all hell and you’ll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails.

It was a jest. 

Like I said they are fields of study that I respect and enjoy and think they have worth. I think quantum physics has contributed wonderfully to the world of stuff. However, in terms of using particles to explain reality, it is still very much in the realms of the belief zone. Although as a tool it is pretty wonderful. The meaning of the double slit experiment is nothing if not mystic. IMO. 

I would disagree that we know what planets are constituted of. Even less so deep space. Using wavelengths to determine material is unreliable when you have no idea the limit of what materials are possible. I would suggest this becomes harder and closer to guessing the deeper into space you get. Using colour to determine the distance of a star, is guesswork as far as I am concerned. Although again I respect the efforts of our science folk. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Seal
add further info

[Seal]

2 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

 

And here I will leave you with the words of the famous layer Clarence Darrow:

Chase after the truth like all hell and you’ll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails.

It has taken me all evening to unravel your meaning behind this. Sometimes it is the most human messages that are the hardest to unravel. This thread may not prove religion right or wrong. But it can prove good exists. Heartfelt thanks, and if I am mistaken I am also embarrassed.

[Xann]

[fruitvilla]

19 hours ago, Seal said:

However, in terms of using particles to explain reality, it is still very much in the realms of the belief zone.

I frequently find myself frustrated when talking with religious folk, who in my opinion obfuscate when it comes to words like belief, know and faith. I  believe the Earth rotates and revolves around the sun. Is this a belief zone? Of course when be push the boundaries of our understanding, our understanding becomes murky. What's the issue? Walking into a brick wall and the resulting pain  may not be what they seem, but they are real. 

19 hours ago, Seal said:

Using wavelengths to determine material is unreliable when you have no idea the limit of what materials are possible.

I do wonder about your qualifications to speak knowledgeably here. Firstly, it is not colour/wavelengths but the absence of certain spectral lines that correspond/match light emitted by elements when ionized. For example, the doublet wavelet emitted by sodium in sodium vapour street lights is missing in the sun's spectrum.

The last part of the sentence is almost as though you dozed through the physics lessons at school.

[Seal]

20 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

I frequently find myself frustrated when talking with religious folk, who in my opinion obfuscate when it comes to words like belief, know and faith. I  believe the Earth rotates and revolves around the sun. Is this a belief zone? Of course when be push the boundaries of our understanding, our understanding becomes murky. What's the issue? Walking into a brick wall and the resulting pain  may not be what they seem, but they are real. 

I do wonder about your qualifications to speak knowledgeably here. Firstly, it is not colour/wavelengths but the absence of certain spectral lines that correspond/match light emitted by elements when ionized. For example, the doublet wavelet emitted by sodium in sodium vapour street lights is missing in the sun's spectrum.

The last part of the sentence is almost as though you dozed through the physics lessons at school.

 

I would say that the earth rotates, and revolves around the sun, is a belief.  That doesn't mean I disagree with it or that it is wrong. Your second sentence - you can walk into a wall and personally verify that it hurts. If you cannot personally verify the nature of reality, I would say it is a belief. However if one wanted to get quite picky, our senses are all ultimately constructed inside us, probably, therefore we are always limited to never being sure reality is not just our brain is just playing tricks on us. So I guess one could argue everything is a belief. It all depends where you set the limit.

On the second paragraph. Spectral lines refer to disambiguates in a spectrum. Spectrums are composed of things with wavelengths of which visible light and colour are one.  It was a short sentence in a forum post not a scientific thesis. I don't think there is anything in what I said that your statement disagrees with. It kinds feels like a straw man is in the room here where each time I have made a comment, you push the discussion in a different way. So rather than deal with my suggestion that there is significant room for error based upon the difficulty of knowing what we can actually know that we see in deep space, you kind of seem to push the discussion onto sentences not pertaining to the point not being fleshed out to a point. Sure we can know that sodium is not in the sun. But can we know that everything we know on earth is everything that can be known in the entirety of the universe? Knowing that sodium is not in something is not knowing what is in it. 

In particular, I don't recall ever saying anywhere there is an issue with pushing the boundaries of our understanding into murkiness. Because I said at times physics displays mystical qualities, does not mean I think any less of it. In fact I think it makes it more important and fascinating. I also think mysticism is fascinating and very important. I love quantum physics, and I love astro physics, and I think that they are fantastic because they deal in such murky areas. Valuable also. I had already said this. So to say that I have a problem with it, is a bit straw man territory. 

Nor have I claimed to speak knowledgeably about quantum physics. I have no scientific qualifications. Are you knowledgeable concerning mysticism? I think we are both ok to talk about it and we need no qualifications to do that. In fact I think that one of the ways of becoming qualified to talk about something is via talking about it. 

I am sure you are aware of the double slit experiment. I think it is fair to say that what it suggests it is ok to extrapolate that quantum physics delves into the realms of the mystical. If you disagree with that that is fine, but at this juncture we leave the real world to enter our own subjective world of perceptions, which is kinda poetic bearing in mind the nature of the experiment. 

I do have a very solid memory of feeling very very dozy in physics once at school. Could be I slept through some of it. 

 

[Chindie]

On 15/07/2022 at 22:47, Chindie said:

Appeal has gone in favour of the hospital.

Almost certainly will go to the Court of Appeal next week.

Interesting the judge mentioned that the staff 'treating' him have become distressed by it. It must be very difficult for those medically trained to have to spend months carrying out procedures that they know are forlorn.

But the Christian Legal Centre has an agenda to push.

Appeal denied.

Looks like the kid can go with some dignity and the family can grieve at last.

[sne]

Something, something Pope, silly hat.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, sne said:

Something, something Pope, silly hat.

Vatican Village People?

[theboyangel]

21 minutes ago, bickster said:

Vatican Village People?

Young man... 

Words adored by Catholic priests