mjmooney Posted June 13, 2022 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Or is God beyond all understanding? He moves in mysterious ways. He's a one-deity Ministry of Silly Walks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, nick76 said: This what I never get about religion, how do they know it was the touch of god and not something else or a myriad of other possible explanations. Sorry brother, the quote I mention implies that religion is insignificant in this situation, "according to Hoyle miracle". Religion claims the rules and is the authority on God. The quote says that wasn't important, it was how he felt that mattered. Edited June 13, 2022 by A'Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 13, 2022 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, A'Villan said: When I saw @mjmooney post the Dylan lyrics in here, that is spirituality for me. It's a song about an uptight straight bloke who's stumbled into a gay club. Admittedly Dylan is heavily into his spirituality, and he's written plenty of God songs - some of them pretty good, some absolutely dire. I just (mostly) like him as a singer/musician/songwriter, I get no 'spiritual' inspiration from his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, mjmooney said: He moves in mysterious ways. He's a one-deity Ministry of Silly Walks. Initially I read the "l" in walks as an "n". 12 minutes ago, A'Villan said: I don't see why science and God have to be at odds. Some argue for NOMA. But if if you can come up with some observations that we can test your hypothesis I would be more than happy to review my position. Science is not at odds with God or Gods, at least in my opinion. All we can do as humans is point at existence. God what ever it is may or may not exist, but I am pretty sure the universe exists. I personally don't need any "more". As some have argued this Concept of a "God" is actually a Golden Calf in its own right. Edited June 13, 2022 by fruitvilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, fruitvilla said: Initially I read the "l" in walks as an "n". Some argue for NOMA. But if if you can come up with some observations that we can test your hypothesis I would be more than happy to review my position. Science is not at odds with God or Gods, at least in my opinion. All we can do as humans is point at existence. God what ever it is may or may not exist, but I am pretty sure the universe exists. I personally don't need any "more". As some have argued this Concept of a "God" is actually a Golden Calf in its own right. Take me to the big bang please. I would like to know where it is located currently. Does it have coordinates? Can you do that for me? Even with the science the big bang is so far away and can only be imagined by us, and I do mean us, not just myself, that it could be labelled never-never land. 3 minutes ago, mjmooney said: It's a song about an uptight straight bloke who's stumbled into a gay club. Admittedly Dylan is heavily into his spirituality, and he's written plenty of God songs - some of them pretty good, some absolutely dire. I just (mostly) like him as a singer/musician/songwriter, I get no 'spiritual' inspiration from his work. Do you know what the most fundamental aspect to our happiness is according to psychiatry and psychology? Meaning. And you knew what I meant when I said Bob Dylan, and that is why you posted his lyrics. To share meaning. I find it interesting that we are all so different and unique, one of a kind originals, yet we are also so undeniably in this together and able to relate. A form of the universe experiencing itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted June 13, 2022 Administrator Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, A'Villan said: Take me to the big bang please. I would like to know where it is located currently. Does it have coordinates? Can you do that for me? Even with the science the big bang is so far away and can only be imagined by us, and I do mean us, not just myself, that it could be labelled never-never land. It is everywhere. That is the entire basis of the theory. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, limpid said: It is everywhere. That is the entire basis of the theory. In the moment that it originated I meant. Does that still exist? What about the you of one year ago? Is that still existing? And if it is doesn't that mean that we are all connected? All united. One. Edited June 13, 2022 by A'Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, A'Villan said: Take me to the big bang please. I would like to know where it is located currently. Does it have coordinates? Can you do that for me? Even with the science the big bang is so far away and can only be imagined by us, and I do mean us, not just myself, that it could be labelled never-never land. OK there's a lot to unpack here ... but as Limpid succinctly summarized: we exist in the remnants of the big bang. As you well know I can't take back to the big bang no more than you can go back five minutes. So you are just playing rhetorical games here as far as I am concerned. The difference between science and whatever it is you are doing is that science can propose something and we might be able to disprove it. Science may find corroborating evidence to support a position or a proposal, but it will never prove it true. As yet you have not described what you are arguing for ... so I am still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, A'Villan said: doesn't that mean that we are all connected? Here I would agree with you (in a sense). But if we are all connected (by cause and effect in all it senses) that would imply there is no free will. Personally I cannot but help but be fine with this. If you by "One" mean the universe, then you are pointing to pantheism. As a great prophet said pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted June 13, 2022 Administrator Share Posted June 13, 2022 42 minutes ago, A'Villan said: In the moment that it originated I meant. Does that still exist? What about the you of one year ago? Is that still existing? Yes, so do I. All of spacetime expanded from a singularity. All of space time occupied an infinitesimal point before the expansion, but there is still the same amount of space as at the beginning. And it's still expanding. 42 minutes ago, A'Villan said: And if it is doesn't that mean that we are all connected? All united. One. Yes. We are all part of the same universe. The clue is in the name. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, mjmooney said: It's a song about an uptight straight bloke who's stumbled into a gay club. Admittedly Dylan is heavily into his spirituality, and he's written plenty of God songs - some of them pretty good, some absolutely dire. I just (mostly) like him as a singer/musician/songwriter, I get no 'spiritual' inspiration from his work. Yeah, I donated my copy of Slow Train Coming to a Christian friend of mine because I thought he'd like it better than I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, fruitvilla said: OK there's a lot to unpack here ... but as Limpid succinctly summarized: we exist in the remnants of the big bang. As you well know I can't take back to the big bang no more than you can go back five minutes. So you are just playing rhetorical games here as far as I am concerned. The difference between science and whatever it is you are doing is that science can propose something and we might be able to disprove it. Science may find corroborating evidence to support a position or a proposal, but it will never prove it true. As yet you have not described what you are arguing for ... so I am still waiting. So you’re saying there isn’t a local bus to the Big Bang?! Well twist my nipple and call me Deirdre. Not even the number 9?! Faith in science gone. Bring me the books. (Only joking, I’m an atheist, thank god) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 13, 2022 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 39 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Yeah, I donated my copy of Slow Train Coming to a Christian friend of mine because I thought he'd like it better than I did. Actually, I really like STC (with the notable exception of the execrable "Man Gave Names to All the Animals") - it's probably his best sounding album, great musicians, good production, and Dylan's impassioned vocal performances were the snarling equal of anything on the 65-66 albums. The following two in the 'gospel trilogy' (Saved and Shot of Love) were mostly pretty poor, though. But the theology? Utter nonsense. Hey ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 26 minutes ago, Rob182 said: So you’re saying there isn’t a local bus to the Big Bang?! Well if you are a Brummie ... I think we are on the number 11 and I want to get off. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Anybody remember B of the Bang? Some of the B of the Bang can still be seen in storage in Manchester, although strangely it’s unlikely it will ever be put back together as whilst some of it is in storage, some of it was cut up and sold for scrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 9 hours ago, mjmooney said: Actually, I really like STC (with the notable exception of the execrable "Man Gave Names to All the Animals") That's definitely the one which did for me. Sometimes, I think Bob is just having a laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 14, 2022 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 14, 2022 43 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: That's definitely the one which did for me. Sometimes, I think Bob is just having a laugh. Going a bit off topic here, but yes, he definitely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 hour ago, mjmooney said: Going a bit off topic here, but yes, he definitely is. Although off topic, it has to be said that the fact that Bob's real name was Zimmerman (carpenter) did suggest to some that he was some kind of prophet. Music at its best can verge on the numinous. I knew people who considered Beethoven's Missa Solemnis to be a profound religious experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 14, 2022 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 14, 2022 50 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Although off topic, it has to be said that the fact that Bob's real name was Zimmerman (carpenter) did suggest to some that he was some kind of prophet. Music at its best can verge on the numinous. I knew people who considered Beethoven's Missa Solemnis to be a profound religious experience. Sure. Music has that power. We've become conditioned to respond in predictable ways to particular musical triggers, and skilled composers and players know how to manipulate that. Some of the most moving and inspirational 'religious' music has been written by atheists and agnostics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 5 hours ago, mjmooney said: Sure. Music has that power. We've become conditioned to respond in predictable ways to particular musical triggers, and skilled composers and players know how to manipulate that. Some of the most moving and inspirational 'religious' music has been written by atheists and agnostics. Do you think that is why singing is such an essential part of religious service, at least for Christians anyway? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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