All-Purpose Religion Thread

[Chindie]

On 25/07/2022 at 14:53, Chindie said:

Appeal denied.

Looks like the kid can go with some dignity and the family can grieve at last.

Spoke too soon.

They've now asked the UN to intervene. They claim the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities has a protocol that allows people to complain about violations of their rights as disabled people.

Except he's not disabled. He's brain-dead. He's being kept alive by a machine. There's evidence his blood flow to the brain has been compromised significantly and that his brain has begun to decompose. That's not disabled. That's dead.

Again I appreciate that it's a grim situation for the family and it's a tragedy all round, but this is pretty poor. You're asking a group that has a very defined remit to intervene in something completely outside their purpose, which kinda feels like it is demeaning that organisation and it's purpose. This follows the father 'having a heart attack' immediately before the appeal judgement that lead to a request to delay the hearing which he was released from hospital the next day from.

[Chindie]

Apparently the doctors don't know better than 'God' in whether someone should live or die.

I agree.

It seems 'God' has made their decision and the doctors are just prolonging the inevitable. The kid's dead. Machines, medication and constant medical attention are the only thing keeping the body alive.

Sad that scum like Christian Legal Centre are using a tragedy to further their religious agenda.

[Follyfoot]

On 25/07/2022 at 20:31, sne said:

Something, something Pope, silly hat.

Steven Seagal far right

[sparrow1988]

On 25/07/2022 at 21:31, sne said:

Something, something Pope, silly hat.

I knew I'd seen that guy in the middle at the back somewhere before

 

[Chindie]

Short stay in the Archie Battersbee case, until noon tomorrow, to allow for any possible further appeal. They rejected that the UN Committee has any say in the case - which it doesn't, and even if it could wouldn't be appropriate as the kid isn't disabled, he's dead. Meanwhile the idiots on Twitter are desperately tying themselves in knots over how a rotting brain can repair itself and how to square 'God's judgement' being to kill a child whilst it's also 'God's judgement' that the body should be kept alive artificially and taking that artificial support away is bad.

[Chindie]

The Battersbee case is now going for a last minute direct appeal to the Supreme Court.

The family has also described the removal off life support as the NHS undertaking a 'choreographed execution' of their child, which is pretty grim.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

On 29/07/2022 at 20:53, Chindie said:

Spoke too soon.

They've now asked the UN to intervene. They claim the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities has a protocol that allows people to complain about violations of their rights as disabled people.

Except he's not disabled. He's brain-dead. He's being kept alive by a machine. There's evidence his blood flow to the brain has been compromised significantly and that his brain has begun to decompose. That's not disabled. That's dead.

 

How dare you deny that being dead is a disability.   That's the sort of discrimination that the dead community suffer every day. 

Although I was born alive,  I now self-identify as dead.   I am currently transitioning and hope to attain formal dead recognition in the next 50 years. 

Being part of the dead community is great.  We don't pay bills and none of the laws of the living apply to us.   

[Chindie]

Supreme Court now considering the case.

It's worth noting that the 'Christian Legal Centre', that is using this tragedy, doesn't really give a flying **** about the family or the kid, they know they will almost certainly 'lose' the case. They are intent on that happening so they can push an evangelical Christian agenda into the discourse with the aim of making British laws more overtly conservative Christian in nature, by arguing that 'Christian values' are being overthrown by, amongst other things, secular and (shock horror) Muslim sensibilities. One of the judges that has overseen one of 'their' cases actually went to the unusual extent of deriding the 'CLC' representative in the case as a deluded zealot. The same guy went on to attempt to bring murder charges against the doctors involved.

This is dangerous.

[bannedfromHandV]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

The Battersbee case is now going for a last minute direct appeal to the Supreme Court.

The family has also described the removal off life support as the NHS undertaking a 'choreographed execution' of their child, which is pretty grim.

It’s a horrible situation and I cannot even begin to try to understand what the parents and family are going through.

That being said, this feels like one of those situations where you need to be cruel to be kind, all these appeals just feel like an elongation of the inevitable.

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It’s a horrible situation and I cannot even begin to try to understand what the parents and family are going through.

That being said, this feels like one of those situations where you need to be cruel to be kind, all these appeals just feel like an elongation of the inevitable.

The court process is pointless. He's brain-stem dead, the only thing keeping his body alive is a combination of machines, cocktails of drugs to prevent functions that his body can no longer do causing further problems, and the staff at the hospital providing constant care. Stop any of those and the body will die. The parents obviously are in terrible situation, but this isn't like a coma patient or someone who has suffered major injury being on life support, where there's hope of recovery. This is literally just prolonging death. He will not recover. The NHS staff know this, and they know that being on life support on this manner has it's own downsides (it is very painful and brings its own problems to the health of the recipient, especially over time), which brings an ethical question of whether it's right to cause harm without a purpose.

The argument back is if he's dead you can't cause harm... But that ignores a couple of things. Firstly while he is brain-stem dead he's not 'dead-dead', for want of a better way of putting it, so they are still causing harm to him for no purpose, and secondly there's the issue of the impact this has on staff when they know they're doing all this with no good end to come and also while not following a palliative end of life path (straining their own well-being). And unfortunately there's the question of forcing life in a hopeless case, when there's resource issues that sadly the service is faced with. 

At the end of the day, he is gone. He can't be saved. The family is a terrible position, and they've sadly been exploited by an evil organisation with its own agenda to use their dead kid as a tool for, but ultimately they have to accept that their child is gone, as difficult as that is. They have to let him have some dignity, and go. They should focus on the last moments they have with him, and not be parading in front of cameras and chasing lost causes in court when they could be with him at these last moments.

The derision of the staff tasked with keeping him going against all odds as engaging in a 'choreographed execution' is pretty disgusting. It's said in grief, but I hope they'll realise they shouldn't say things like that, and it's intensely offensive to the people that are, against everything 'God' appears to want, looking after their son.

[Chindie]

Supreme Court rejects the appeal. The Christian Legal Centre will be looking for their next victim.

[cyrusr]

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

Supreme Court rejects the appeal. The Christian Legal Centre will be looking for their next victim.

I was just explaining the case to the wife and she asked who was funding it. I am unsurprised by this to be honest. 

These cases are always a nightmare and all this is doing is making everyone suffer more. 

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, cyrusr said:

I was just explaining the case to the wife and she asked who was funding it. I am unsurprised by this to be honest. 

These cases are always a nightmare and all this is doing is making everyone suffer more. 

Yep.

But that's what these vultures want. They want to highlight the suffering so they can have conversations in the public eye about changing the law for their conservative Christian purposes. They are the words removed that support people seeking unfair dismissal when they get sacked for being homophobes, they're literally the legal arm of a lobbying business that wants to criminalise gay relationships, ban abortion, etc etc. All the evil mind **** shit the worst of the US right wants to inflict on the world. They use these cases to market their cause, the complete **** ghouls.

[Chindie]

Appeal to European Court of Human Rights made in the Battersbee case. Won't make any difference, just drags the suffering out longer.

Meanwhile apparently Italian and Japanese medical facilities have said they can help. Which would mean they have discovered a way to fix catastrophic brain injury with decomposition to the extent no piece of equipment can detect any brain function. Unfortunately he is so reliant on machines and constant medical intervention they can't move him to another room let alone another country.

His body literally can't function without medical assistance. His digestive system is no longer working properly, the food they give him isn't causing his brain to initiate digestive processes so it literally goes through his system with minimal digestion, so they're having to pump him full of immodium to try to slow the process forcibly so he doesn't starve. His brain isn't controlling his kidney function so he's constantly losing fluids because the body doesn't know to limit the amount of water it's releasing into urine. His blood pressure isn't stable and requires constant monitoring and application of medicines to balance it. He can't regulate his temperature... All the systems that just 'happen' in a person with an operative brain are not happening. He scores the lowest possible score in a brain damage assessment test, doesn't respond to any stimuli at all (pain, light, etc etc). 

He's dead. It's terrible but that's the inescapable fact of things. It's miraculous that the doctors and nurses are managing to keep him 'alive' as much as they are. But they're apparently executioners.

The words removed propagating this suffering for their evil ends should be ashamed.

[Chindie]

The ECHR appeal was rejected, so the latest fight is over having him moved to a hospice to die officially. The hospital argues it can't permit that on 2 fronts - firstly he's in so fragile a state that any movement risks him dying in an uncontrolled manner (to the extent it appears he's actually gone into cardiac arrest when they moved him for an MRI previously) and he needs constant care when moving. An example is that his lungs fill with a fluid that has to be suctioned out regularly, which means removing his ventilator, but he is absolutely incapable of breathing without assistance so each time this procedure is done a second nurse has to manually provide air via a bag pump while another does the procedure. The concern therefore is essentially any movement is going to kill him by disrupting the process of keeping him alive.

The second issue for the hospital is they have explicitly ordered by the court that they must provide the end of life care, due to the risks involved in causing him unintended harm, so even the hospital wanted to let him go, they can't.

There also is the issue that hospices aren't really designed to provide the end of life care that someone coming off life support require, so it's unlikely staff would be trained in the process of humanely removing the support. And the circus around this case isn't really conducive to hospice's purpose - you risk disturbing other patients and their families at a sensitive time. Apparently a hospice has said they'll do it, but that has come from the parents who are increasingly unreliable in their comments.

So the saga continues.

[Chindie]

High Court rejects permission to move Battersbee to a hospice. They've given a short period to allow an appeal. Which we know is coming.

Meanwhile the Christian Legal Centre wrings a little more grist from the decomposing body of a child, which obviously is a godly endeavour.

[Ingram85]

Im not going to slag off the poor boys family but man, they could have let him go with a bit more dignity, for both his poor little body and for themselves. To be verbally abusing and encouraging further abuse of the health system and being taken for a ride by a malicious and poisonous religious sect is just sad and if I’m honest, pathetic. 

I kind of get the fight side of it, it’s their boy and it’s an emotive and tragic thing and I don’t know how I’d react if I was in their situation but still….. I wouldn’t go to these lengths the way they have done and mostly, the little lad deserves a lot better than this. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Ingram85

[Davkaus]

Like you, Ingram, I hope I'd have acted with a little more dignity, but I can't say for sure. We came within minutes of losing our daughter in January, and nothing could have prepared me for the overwhelming fear, grief, and just pure rage, I felt like burning that **** place to the ground and I've never felt anger like it.

They're in a position of feeling like they have to give their consent for their child to die. I don't excuse some of the things they've said, and it's not been the best way to react, but I can barely imagine how traumatic this has been for them.

The god-bothering lawyers, on the other hand, can get to ****.

[Ingram85]

2 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Like you, Ingram, I hope I'd have acted with a little more dignity, but I can't say for sure. We came within minutes of losing our daughter in January, and nothing could have prepared me for the overwhelming fear, grief, and just pure rage, I felt like burning that **** place to the ground and I've never felt anger like it.

They're in a position of feeling like they have to give their consent for their child to die. I don't excuse some of the things they've said, and it's not been the best way to react, but I can barely imagine how traumatic this has been for them.

The god-bothering lawyers, on the other hand, can get to ****.

I think if my child had any chance of surviving then I’d fight for sure but for Christ’s sake you have to be some kind of person to think someone being artificially kept alive by heaters, tubes and drugs while most of their organs have shut down, the others are in shock and have no idea what’s happening, the brain is literally decomposing away inside his head and his body has started to fail and break down (which would then have gotten a lot worse and horrifying regardless of the miracles the nursing staff were doing) then christ, I’d like to think I’d have more respect for my sons body to let that happen and get worse. 

You know the health staff will be targeted by like minded “crusaders” now. It’s **** up. The staff should be being praised for going against what is right and keeping his body from decomposing. I feel for the parents but the staff must be emotionally drained and knackered as well. Im not slagging the parents off, I feel for them and am trying to be polite to them but **** man, they’ve gone about this terribly and that little kid deserved better. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Ingram85

[choffer]