LondonLax Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Also, I would ask Jondaken this - What religion are you, and why are you right but all the other religions, that essentially amount to similar things when you get down to it (incomprehensible being(s) making the world and so on), are wrong? Is it because you just so happened to be brought up in a '________' household? Married into it? etc etc. Yea I was brought up a born again Christian. Got it mainly from my Dad who wasn't brought up a christian and got saved in his mid 20's. But no, I dont believe I followed like a sheep if that's what your getting at. I stopped going to church at 12, started going back at 18 when it kinda turned out to be the only thing that made sense to me, was that there must be a God. And yea, I do believe all other religions are wrong, else I'd be a pretty bad christian if I though otherwise. It's hard to explain this sort of stuff, not least over forum boards! Do you not also agree that if you had happened to be born in Saudi Arabia to devout Muslim parents you would most likely be a Muslim now instead? That must mean your god allows some souls enough exposure to Christianity to chose for themselves the 'right' religion but denies that of others born in the wrong place (or the wrong time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 18, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2009 I hate that term, 'saved'. It has that high and mighty, 'I'm right and you're wrong, burn ****' inflection to it. I may have to stop looking at this thread, it'll make me angry. Bad enough when I'm told by someone they're gonna pray for me lest they can't convert me. EDIT - I would also like to raise LondonLax's point above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Haven't read the thread but for me it's yes and no. I don't think there is a old bloke with a beard sitting in the sky but I think life itself is 'God'. I guess that makes me either a Jedi or a Pagan although my core beliefs about the treatment of others are shaped by Chrisitianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I have to agree the word "saved" comes across wrong and to be fair should say "Lost" depending on how you look at it. I read it as "Lost" but in any discussion like this my brain changes the words, God to "Harry Potter" and so on or else it jsut becomes a bit silly. Bottom line on this for me is : At what age do religious people prey on their off spring and feed them the lies of religion ? I believe the idea is to get to them when they are as young as possible, why would that be do you think ? I know why but any guesses ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 In one word, no. And no man on earth can convince me of his existance. There's only one way in convincing me and that won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I dont understand the hate to be honest Let the Christians believe, its part of who they are. Its inherent in their culture and they can no more walk away from it than you or I could stop with some aspect of our culture. its only dangerous when this silliness gets into public life,and as I dont think the Christian being baited in this thread is a public figure responsible for shaping policy, and neither is he answerable for the actions of other Christians, let him be. It is possible to rationally look at the universe and deduce that 'God did it'. It may not be a scientific answer, but its an answer,and there is more to life than science. If you rely purely on what you can see, hear, taste and feel then you are going to be misled about the nature of your existence more often than not . if someone comes to the conclusion (and loads of very intelligent, well educated, well travelled people *have reached this conclusion) that God exists, then thats their personal business. So what? To seem the same tired old crap trotted out over and over again that completely misses the point that God, if he exists, isnt bound by the laws of the universe. You cant debate him out of existence, because in one very significant way he does unequivocally exist - in the minds of the people who believe him, and some might say that is the most powerful form of existence of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villadude Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I hate that term, 'saved'. It has that high and mighty, 'I'm right and you're wrong, burn ****' inflection to it. I just laughed my bollocks off reading that Your right though Chinders, it **** me off too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 In one word, no. And no man on earth can convince me of his existance. There's only one way in convincing me and that won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I dont understand the hate to be honest Let the Christians believe, its part of who they are. Its inherent in their culture and they can no more walk away from it than you or I could stop with some aspect of our culture. its only dangerous when this silliness gets into public life,and as I dont think the Christian being baited in this thread is a public figure responsible for shaping policy, and neither is he answerable for the actions of other Christians, let him be. It is possible to rationally look at the universe and deduce that 'God did it'. It may not be a scientific answer, but its an answer,and there is more to life than science. If you rely purely on what you can see, hear, taste and feel then you are going to be misled about the nature of your existence more often than not . if someone comes to the conclusion (and loads of very intelligent, well educated, well travelled people *have reached this conclusion) that God exists, then thats their personal business. So what? To seem the same tired old crap trotted out over and over again that completely misses the point that God, if he exists, isnt bound by the laws of the universe. You cant debate him out of existence, because in one very significant way he does unequivocally exist - in the minds of the people who believe him, and some might say that is the most powerful form of existence of all. but I enjoye debating the issue to find out how people came to the conclusion God indeed create all and everything. Whilst I cannot empathise with their logic and conclusion, I am willing to accept they believe that and their reasons for doing do. Whilst they cannot prove he exists to me, I do like to find out why they believe he exists. If they believe that then that is fine. I don't hate anyone for doing so, what I do not like is when people do things "in the name of their religion", because that shows they are not doing things because they want to, they are doing it because they are told to. and the fact religious texts are open to individual interpretation shows god's word isn't finite at all. It can be manipulated by the reader to how what they "think" God wants us to do. Hence the majority of all extremism stemming from religion. But you do get the odd extremist Atheist, which is probably worse in terms of my view of their stance on this question. Extreme Atheists are just as deluded as Bin Laden IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 It is possible to rationally look at the universe and deduce that 'God did it'. It may not be a scientific answer, but its an answer,and there is more to life than science. I suggest you go look up the word rational. There is NOTHING rational about looking at the universe and going "God did it". It's an entirely irrational belief that does not follow logic. Attributing the creation of everything to an outside creator who apparently is just there because he is has no rational basis at all. It's the very opposite of rational thinking. People can believe in God all they like, I have no issues with that. When they start going on about evidence and rationality in their arguments for though, is where I draw the line, because there's no such thing. The evidence and rationality says there ISN'T a God, religion is a faith based argument that exists without real evidence and AGAINST rational thinking, this is what faith is, the ability to believe something when all evidence goes against it. I have no issues with Christians that say that they cannot explain how or why, they just know and have faith in their beliefs being true, that's fine, I may not understand how someone can have blind faith in something, but I'll accept it. When they start preaching evidence though, is where I get annoyed. Not only is it misleading but it's also plainly wrong. It's odd, but I have more respect for the Christians that put the dinosaur bones down to a test of faith than those that try to manipulate their beliefs to deal with opposing evidence. At least the young earth creationists have real faith, not the watered down version that seems to exist only in so far as it is in the interests of the holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I think in the interests of the debate a distinction needs to be made here between the people who believe in God or believe there may be a God, and people who are religious. I believe there may be a God, I'm about 50/50, I don't wrap that belief up in religion. Attributing the creation of everything to an outside creator who apparently is just there because he is has no rational basis at all. It's the very opposite of rational thinking. No it's not rational or logical, it's gut feeling, perhaps wishful thinking....but without the shackles of religion a belief in God is harmless IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I suggest you go look up the word rational. There is NOTHING rational about looking at the universe and going "God did it". It's an entirely irrational belief that does not follow logic. Attributing the creation of everything to an outside creator who apparently is just there because he is has no rational basis at all. It's the very opposite of rational thinking. . No, I think there are enough gaps in human knowledge to allow for something supernatural. indeed, there is this theory that in order for the big bang to occur, which science argues made *everything*, there had to be a *sometihing* responsible for the burst of energy which led to the big bang and the hadrons colliding to make matter ..... This something, in its very essence, must be supernatural, in that it existed outside the universe. Freaky stuff. Similarly, if you apply logic to other scientific "truths" like space and time, it doesnt work, because both space and time are identical in that logically they *must* have a beginning and end, but also logically *cannot* do so. Logically therefore, space and time do not exist,and yet they clearly do - the reality of the world around us in this instance patently defies reason and logic. Why are you so sure that everything else can be explained away through reason and logic? I dont think its rational to believe in an old man sat on a cloud condemning people to hell and stuff, but i dont think that idea of God is very prevalent, even amongst devout Christians, I think most Christians view 'him' as a metaphor for something else, and I think most modern Christians similarly view the bible not as something to be taken literally but as something of a guide - a grouping of morality tales a bit like a glorified Aesops fables (indeed, the two books have many stories in common). Obviously you get the odd nutter who still lives in the dark ages, but even so, let them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sellyoakvilla Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I believe in James Milner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno_2004 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Never really been brought up with the expectation to believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 , there is this theory that in order for the big bang to occur, which science argues made *everything*, there had to be a *sometihing* responsible for the burst of energy which led to the big bang and the hadrons colliding to make matter ..... This something, in its very essence, must be supernatural, in that it existed outside the universe. Freaky stuff. . As you are a fan of logic, you may also like to reflect that this is very nearly a logical proof of the existence of a supernatural creator "thing" if the Big Bang is how the universe was made,and science appears close to proving thats how it was made (The LHC will probably prove this once and for all in the years ahead) then that means that there is something that was existing outside of the human understanding of space and time,capable of creating massive amounts of pure energy, that whether by accident or design created the universe. Thats a pretty good 'God' definition, dont you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Never really been brought up with the expectation to believe in God. As hard as I would find it, I would want to give my child the opportunity to make up his/her own mind about the answer to this question. Whilst I have my own opinion on the matter, I wouldn't be a great dad forcing my opinion onto my children, telling them "this is the way it is". They will be able to decide for themselves. I do think any parent that tries to sway their child to believing what they believe the answer to this question is more than welcome to do so, but however you look at it it's forcing them to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 In one word, no. And no man on earth can convince me of his existance. There's only one way in convincing me and that won't happen. Ok, I'm convinced. That's The God we all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 , there is this theory that in order for the big bang to occur, which science argues made *everything*, there had to be a *sometihing* responsible for the burst of energy which led to the big bang and the hadrons colliding to make matter ..... This something, in its very essence, must be supernatural, in that it existed outside the universe. Freaky stuff. . Reminded me of this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ahhhhh, but that same argument could be used for scientific theory. Where did the big bang come from? There must have been something before for that theory to work. Forget the universe itself, where did space itself come from? The big bang didn't happen in space, the big bang was an explosion OF space. What was before the big bang? Nothing. It's like asking which way is south when you are at the south pole. There was no space and no time for there to be anything in. Answering a mystery with an even bigger mystery doesn't help Science does that far too often. Oh the irony! Science does this too often??? Religions do it ALL THE TIME - all they ever have to say about life and the universe is 'goddidit'. Which is explaining the complexity of life and the universe by attributing its creation to an unexplained and untestable being that must logically be even more complex. Saying 'goddidit' answers nothing and simply raises even bigger questions. At least science keeps an open mind and works towards solving the mysteries of the universe. Just because some things like the Big Bang have not been fully explained is no reason to conjur up a god to explain anything - the God of the gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 bottom line - if a creationist falls ill - he shouldn't be treated by any modern medicine. Err... all medicine is created by things that where put on this earth to begin with. If a scientist falls ill, he should not be given anything, because what does it matter if he lives or dies? His life means nothing, and neither does anyone elses, so why go through the effort to save a meaningless life? er....because he will be dead and people will get upset? plus as human beings we have emotional and moral standing to do something about it? Emotions and morals. Where did they come from? Did they just evolve into a physical body? Where did life itself come from? A rock? Where does the will to survive coem from (aka survival of the fittest) People would care about that man and want to help him, because he DOES matter is what I'm trying to get at. I really do have a million more questions with the only answer I can come up with to any of them, is that God must exist So your argument here is: You don't understand where life came from - therefore God must exist. You don't understand how emotions and morals could have evolved - therefore god must exist. You don't know where the 'will to survive' came from - therefore god must exist. It seems the main thing that's underpinning your belief in god is ignorace. Read up a bit on abiogenesis and evolutionary theory in order to rid your mind of childish superstition, would be my sincere advice to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts