Jondaken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Too many shit things happen in life for there to be a god Too many shit things happen in life for there not to be a Devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Too many shit things happen in life for there not to be a Devil. That's the point...but maybe it's just easier to blame God or say neither exist..it's just the natural order of things, how they Evolved. People never seem to remember that according to the Bible, Satan offered Jesus ALL the Kingdom's of the Earth if he would do one act of worship to him...How the heck could the Devil do that if he didn't have enough influence on the way things run down on planet Earth? Surely this just might be a clue as to why we're in such a mess... Jesus called the Devil after all "The ruler of this world"...but he also said that situation would not continue indefinitely... How many people died because of Satan according to the Bible? And god? Well I've tried to give a response to this in the statement above... To give a specific example.... If anyone visits the British Museum and more specifically the room that contains the artifacts from Canaan area...you will see amoungst the items a bulls head attached to a conveyor belt with a handle that turns. This apparently was used by the Baal worshipers in their sacrifices to their God Molech. The Canaanites made each family sacrifice their firstborn child by placing the baby on the conveyor belt, turning the handle and dropping the poor little mite into the fiery furnace below To hide the screams a band would play loud music. Apparently what is so revolting is that the mother of the baby had to stand and watch all this without showing any emotion or begging for her child not to be sacrificed. If she dared to show emotion, in anyway the sacrifice was nullified and the family had to give the next child willingly, until the lust for the firstborn blood was satisfied. This heinous practice was condemned outrightly by the God of the Jews. It shows how common place this practice was in the nations that surrounded the Israelites because God saw fit that it was specifically condemned within the Law covenant given to Moses. (Leviticus 18:21) . . .“‘And you must not allow the devoting of any of your offspring to Mo′lech. . However the Israelites disobeyed this command and even Kings like Manasseh allowed their children to be sacrifced to Molech. This can be seen from (Jeremiah 7:30-31) 30 ‘For the sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’ Therefore this "jealous" God as Risso calls him specifically states that burning children or adults for that matter had not even come up into his heart! Which is a good argument to consider when trying to reason a God of love would ever burn people in hell after they die. However that's another argument entirely... The point is that God didn't want children to die....he forbade his people from even considering it! So how could God be blamed for what nations who followed other Gods did or indeed his stated followers chose to disobey and follow those same dreadful practices? People can make their own minds up as to whether they consider the worship of Baal had more to do with worshiping God or a Devil. Of course if you choose to beleive that the Bible is a book of fiction and it's all stuff and nonsense, then of course that is your absolute right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 my line of thought is - if i live a perfectly sinless life but dont believe in god and i die and im wrong, do religious people believe that god is going to say to me "sorry mate, wrong shoes" but if you live a very sinful life but confess and seek forgiveness and fully believe in god then when you die you will be allowed in hows that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 if i live a perfectly sinless life Can't do that sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 sorry i exaggerated with the sinless life but the point remains, i can live a more "christian" life than most christians but because i dont believe i cant get in i'll point towards good ole westboro, so they can get in because they believe but i cant because i dont? i might not be sinless but im slightly ahead of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddy Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 :shock: I was not expecting a thread on this topic to have survived this long! For the record I'm 99.9% sure there isn't a god. But how can anyone be certain either way? They can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Too many shit things happen in life for there to be a god Too many shit things happen in life for there not to be a Devil. Is this God going to worm his way out of the responsibility for that also? The Devil was supposedly his work, too, wasn't he? This God is sounding very much like the CEO of a bank. It's all events and circumstances. I suppose it's not a faith problem on this earth alone but a universal downturn in faith requiring action across the whole universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Is this God going to worm his way out of the responsibility for that also? The Devil was supposedly his work, too, wasn't he? But God didn't create Robots...where does free will come into it? eg. A child may grow up to be a violent criminal, despite the best efforts of his parents The Bible says God created the first human's perfect ... but they had a choice to obey him or not...they chose to listen to a spirit creature, who questioned God's right to rule mankind....he then made himself a liar or a "Satan" by coveting God's rulership over mankind. God could have destroyed all of them, then and there...but he chose not to..because the question of whether the Creator had the right to give his Creation guidelines would have remained unanswered. Instead the Bible says God chose to let mankind get on with ruling themselves. So for allowing mankind the freedom to rule himself for such a long period of time. and the world is now in such a mess....some are arguing ..there is NO God....and if there is....Why does he allow bad things to happen? Can't win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Too many shit things happen in life for there to be a god Too many shit things happen in life for there not to be a Devil. But surely god is more powerful than the devil? He could stop these things if he wanted to? The buck stops with god right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If the first humans were 'perfect' then how could they choose to be imperfect? Free will? That would suggest that free will itself might be imperfect (in that it allows something perfect to become imperfect). Therefore giving a perfect creature that imperfection might not have been a perfect thing to do. But God didn't create Robots I don't know - didn't he? Did the knowledge required to do this emanate originally from somewhere? And if that somewhere were not God where was it? If God didn't create Satan, who did? Man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted February 19, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2009 sorry i exaggerated with the sinless life but the point remains, i can live a more "christian" life than most christians but because i dont believe i cant get in i'll point towards good ole westboro, so they can get in because they believe but i cant because i dont? i might not be sinless but im slightly ahead of them In that instance, you are deciding what is good enough or bad enough to get into heaven. I'm never sure where this common misconception comes from; that people believe it is innate 'goodness' that God is looking for as a qualification for entrance. Sure, Christians across the world get caught up in 'legalism' on how to behave but from what I see, the Bible is quite clear on how you get in and it's nothing to do with how good (or not) you are. The Bible says that as far as God is concerned, evryone has have fallen short of His standards. That is where the concept of grace comes in. Grace is often described (in a somewhat contrived way) as something freely given but not deserved. The Bible says that God shows his love to us by not turning his back on us (despite us turning our backs on him) but by giving us an opportunity to enter heaven. That way is nothing to do with our human conventions of good and bad behaviour but is an offer of a place in heaven, should one wish to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 He chooses not to interfere. As I already explained ages back, he gave us free will, the ability to do what we like. He did not want to create a race of zombies. He wants us to chose to follow him, not do it because he pressed a button on our heads. Ah right, he chooses not to interfere. That's not what you said though - you said he had no control over us. You say he chooses not to interfere, but he used to interfere quite a lot if you believe the Bible. Bellowing down orders to Abraham and Moses, talking to Adam, impregnating virgins, sending his son to walk among us, dispatching angels to talk to shepherds etc. Why do you think he gave up on this interference?? Strange innit. Another point, on free will. If you believe that God is all-knowing and knows everything that will happen in our lives, then free will is a nonsense. If he knows every single decision we will take and what will happen as result, then our lives are mapped out for us and free will is an illusion. If you say he doesn't know what we're going to do, then he's not an all-knowing god. Your thoughts Jondaken? Bumped in the hope of of a response from Jandaken.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT_1993 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 no, there is no supporting evidence that he exists, if he does hes a complete clearing in the woods anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If the first humans were 'perfect' then how could they choose to be imperfect? Free will? That would suggest that free will itself might be imperfect (in that it allows something perfect to become imperfect). Therefore giving a perfect creature that imperfection might not have been a perfect thing to do. No it's not imperfect to have free will. Like I said a baby is not born a violent criminal, yet he may grow up to be one, despite the best efforts of his parents. Jesus was a perfect man, yet the Bible says the Devil tempted him into not obeying God and instead choosing a different path. If Jesus couldn't have been anything else but perfect, why the heck would the Devil bother tempting him...would have been a waste of time. Jesus had a choice, whether he served God or not...same as the first man and woman had a choice... Once Adam & Eve disobeyed God that left an open question as to whether their Creator had the right to give them guidelines to live by....same as any parent with their children. But God didn't create Robots I don't know - didn't he? Did the knowledge required to do this emanate originally from somewhere? And if that somewhere were not God where was it? No Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Yes they were swayed by a spirit creature, who questioned God's guidelines and also stated that God had lied to them. If God didn't create Satan, who did? Man? The word "Satan" means resister...the word "Devil" comes from the Greek word "Diabolos" meaning "slanderer". This spirit creature MADE HIMSELF into a "Satan" by turning against God and setting himself up as a rival when he caused Adam & Eve to disobey God. When Jesus condemned the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees...he told them in no uncertain terms where their wicked ways originated.... (John 8:44-45) 44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Notice Jesus says... he didn't stand fast, or remain....implying he could have done had he chosen. It's interesting to note in the book of Job, Chapter 1 v 1 -22 that Satan is shown to be a spirit creature that is now by this time a rival or adversary to God..interfering in mankind's affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 19, 2009 Administrator Share Posted February 19, 2009 No Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Yes they were swayed by a spirit creature, who questioned God's guidelines and also stated that God had lied to them. Who created the spirit creature? The word "Satan" means resister...the word "Devil" comes from the Greek word "Diabolos" meaning "slanderer". This spirit creature MADE HIMSELF into a "Satan" by turning against God and setting himself up as a rival when he caused Adam & Eve to disobey God. Who gave the spirit creature free will to make this choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Yes I do.......I didn't used to.... because I was bought up by Agnostics and was never baptised or anything. Always loved nature since I was a little girl and I'm afraid I could never reconcile the beauty and the complexity in nature and the natural world,with evolution and there being no creator. Actually to my surprise as I grew up I learned that even Darwin who started the theory of evolution believed in a Creator, he never said that he didn't beleive in God. Just over time other's made their minds up that the theory of evolution explained away any existence or need for a "Creator" So yes I do believe in God and the Bible says his name is Jehovah, which in ancient Hebrew means.... "He causes to become" Julie, don't mean to be confrontational here - just interested in your pov. You say you can't reconcile evolution with the complexity of nature. However this is exactly what evolutionary theory allows us to - it explains in a simple yet brilliant way how the complexity of life arose as we see it today. Have you ever asked yourself, for example, why there are thousands of different species of beetle? Did god just love making beetles, or is there another reason? Have you read about evolution or studied it in any way in an attempt to understand a bit better? There is masses of information freely available that can explain it to you. Once you understand how evolution works, the pieces all fall into place. There is absolutely no reason why complexity in nature cannot be squared with evolution. Yes I have actually. We had a huge discussion on here on Evolution V Creation a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name of the thread. You have to remember that there are a number of scientists who now question the theory of Evolution because of issues over evidence of Intelligent design. I am not a Creationist....I do not believe God made the Earth and all it's contents in 6 or 7... 24 hour periods... I do however believe that God did create everything over time. including the precise mathematical laws that govern our Universe. I love looking at the Night sky and stars and I love learning about stuff that interests me...and a couple of years ago I took an course on Astronomy at night school for a few months. As I'm lucky enough to live in an area where there's not so much light pollution, the sky at night can be amazing sometimes. It was fascinating and mind boggling stuff. However I was absolutely astounded that the very first slide the Professor put up on the course was actually a scripture from the Bible...that compared the number of stars in the heavens to the grains of sand on the earth....Only since the discovery of the Hubble telescope and it's ability to see into deep space and trillions upon trillions of stars Nebula and the places where they are born etc.... has that ancient statement proved correct. Scientists have quantified so many stars that they have to give them numbers. Yet in stark contrast the Bible says their Creator has a name for each individual star....(Isaiah 40:26) . . .“Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing. No other ancient writings talk about this or mention the Earth being round, or hanging upon nothing. All these and loads more scriptures have proved scientifically correct many millenia after they were written. Of course everyone can just choose to ignore, dismiss it all as poetic nonsense as they wish and have as a right...it's called a choice and free will. However it's surely not fair to assume that just because someone chooses to believe in a Creator ...that they would be somehow any less scientific than someone who believes in an alternative explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted February 19, 2009 Moderator Share Posted February 19, 2009 Is this God going to worm his way out of the responsibility for that also? The Devil was supposedly his work, too, wasn't he? But God didn't create Robots...where does free will come into it? eg. A child may grow up to be a violent criminal, despite the best efforts of his parents The Bible says God created the first human's perfect ... but they had a choice to obey him or not...they chose to listen to a spirit creature, who questioned God's right to rule mankind....he then made himself a liar or a "Satan" by coveting God's rulership over mankind. God could have destroyed all of them, then and there...but he chose not to..because the question of whether the Creator had the right to give his Creation guidelines would have remained unanswered. Instead the Bible says God chose to let mankind get on with ruling themselves. So for allowing mankind the freedom to rule himself for such a long period of time. and the world is now in such a mess....some are arguing ..there is NO God....and if there is....Why does he allow bad things to happen? Can't win! Ok so who created the spirt creature that tempted the first perfect humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Who gave the spirit creature free will to make this choice? His Creator...the same as he gave free will to mankind! That spirit creature CHOSE to turn himself into an opposer...a resister towards his maker. Of course God could have destroyed all of them ...then and there.... but like I tried to explain before.... that would have left a huge question mark hanging over matters... "Did the Creator have the right to exercise universal sovereignty over his Creation or could they rule themselves without his guidance?" In the same manner as a parent has to allow their kids to make mistakes out in the world sometimes because it's the only way they learn. Surely it makes sense that the Creator would need to allow sufficient time for mankind to rule himself and try every sort of government possible, in order for that original question to be answered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Ok so who created the spirt creature that tempted the first perfect humans? I think I've tried to explain that in my answer above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If God didn't create Satan, who did? Man? I think the widely held belief across all religions is that Satan is a fallen angel. Certainly in Islam that is the case (well, he is a Jinn (Genie), which is a lower form of Angel if I can use laymans terms). In Islam he disobeyed Allah at the time of the creation of Adam, so years and years before Jesus came around. Satan is as old as the first man. Extract from 7. Surah Al-A'raf (The Heights) 11. And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. 12. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." 13. (Allah) said: "(O Iblis) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced." 14. (Iblis) said: "Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)." 15. (Allah) said: "You are of those allowed respite." 16. (Iblis) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path. 17. Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e. they will not be dutiful to You)." 18. (Allah) said (to Iblis) "Get out from this (Paradise) disgraced and expelled. Whoever of them (mankind) will follow you, then surely I will fill Hell with you all." It refers to Satan as Iblis there, as Iblis was the guys name at the time, Satan was a name given to him after he was expelled following this incident. Again, there is a bit of debate over the pronunciation of the name as all of this is being translated into English from other languages. Satan is generally referred to as Shaitan in Islam. Same fella though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts