dundeevilla Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 What or Who makes people do the right thing ? People don't always do "the right thing". If you are asking where our morality comes from - it evolved as we evolved. A common morality has survival benefits. We were just lucky enough to be the species that evolved. I love my thumbs. All species evolved. Sorry my mistake, what I meant to say was evolved at a much faster rate, especially where social development and interaction is concerned. I don't read my posts half the time, especially when I am trying to type as fast as I think. Which also leads to typos. But I assume the people reading it can work out what I am trying to say, but in the case of the mistake you pointed out, I stupidly left out an entire sentence. Arrrrrrrgh. I seek forgivness in the video below In the name of the father, son and the celestial teapot, you are forgiven my son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Have you read about evolution or studied it in any way in an attempt to understand a bit better? There is masses of information freely available that can explain it to you. Once you understand how evolution works, the pieces all fall into place. There is absolutely no reason why complexity in nature cannot be squared with evolution. Playing devils advocate a little, the complexity of evolution is almost *too good to be true*. Evolution is a fabulous system, so good, so perfect, so all encompassing it could almost have been designed on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 So yes I do believe in God and the Bible says his name is Jehovah, which in ancient Hebrew means.... "He causes to become" The Bible is wrong, I know this is Wikipedia and so cant be 100% trusted, but its more or less my understanding from studying the subject Because the name was no longer pronounced and its own vowels were not written, its own pronunciation was forgotten. When Christians, unaware of the Jewish tradition, started to read the Hebrew Bible, they read יְהֹוָה as written with YHWH's consonants with Adonai's vowels, and thus said or transcribed Iehovah. Today this transcription is generally recognized as mistaken; however many religious groups continue to use the form Jehovah because it is familiar. the reason why the name wasnt pronounced is that it was considered too sacred to say, and its possible that the letters YHWH, from which the Elohim Yahweh and ultimately Jehovah derive were jsut a jumble of letters used because the person originally writing them darent write the 'true' name of God, known only to a select few. As fo rthe meaning In Exodus chapter 3 verses 13:16 the name Yahweh is explained thus: But Moses said to God, "If I come to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your ancestors has sent me to you', and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I am who I am. [Ehyeh asher ehyeh, אהיה אשר אהיה]" He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ' "I am [Ehyeh, אהיה ]" has sent me to you.'" God also said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'He is [(or similar), Yahweh, ׳הוה], the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': This is my name forever, and this my title for all generations. Mishearings and misunderstandings of this explanation has led to a popular idea that "Yahweh" means "I am", resulting in God, and by colloquial extension sometimes anything which is very dominant in its area [11], being called "the great I AM". Another possibility according to the Complete Jewish Bible by author David H. Stern, proposes that the Tetragrammaton be pronounced letter for letter in Hebrew and that the name of God should be rendered by spelling out the four letters, "Yud He Vav He", the meaning assumed to be "I am that I am" or "I am Who I am", as revealed to Moses in the Torah (Exodus 3:14). "Who threw that?" "Well, you did say Jehova..." etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Always loved nature since I was a little girl and I'm afraid I could never reconcile the beauty and the complexity in nature and the natural world,with evolution and there being no creator. Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? As for Darwin being religious, he was raised religious, he became agnostic about the existence of God, and refused to state a belief due to believing it served little point. He spent a great deal of his later life refusing to write about religion, and refusing to allow atheist writings to be dedicated to him. His belief was that until you could prove atheism to be true it was best not to write about it, and instead to slowly educate people into becoming agnostic. Of course a lot of theists ignore the later stages of his life, and just focus on his religious education and early works which have a religious influence to prove he is "one of them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted February 18, 2009 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2009 There is as much absolute proof of the existance of Spiderman as there is God. So without proof it leaves only belief and I haven't got any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Have you read about evolution or studied it in any way in an attempt to understand a bit better? There is masses of information freely available that can explain it to you. Once you understand how evolution works, the pieces all fall into place. There is absolutely no reason why complexity in nature cannot be squared with evolution. Playing devils advocate a little, the complexity of evolution is almost *too good to be true*. Evolution is a fabulous system, so good, so perfect, so all encompassing it could almost have been designed on purpose. There's nothing perfect about it - it's an inevitablity. If lifeforms inhabit an environment, they will evolve according to the struggle for existence in that particluar environment. The results of that process are just that - the results of that process. For example - we are hardly perfectly evolved beings. We are still very vulnerable to disease and death. Many of us have poor eyesight, our useless appendixes burst and kill us etc etc. What results from evolution is not perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Have you read about evolution or studied it in any way in an attempt to understand a bit better? There is masses of information freely available that can explain it to you. Once you understand how evolution works, the pieces all fall into place. There is absolutely no reason why complexity in nature cannot be squared with evolution. Playing devils advocate a little, the complexity of evolution is almost *too good to be true*. Evolution is a fabulous system, so good, so perfect, so all encompassing it could almost have been designed on purpose. This is the thing though, evolution may be a chance in a billion, it might be the rarest of rarest possibilities for a planet to exist where it can take place, but that doesn't mean that it's not just a chance occurance. The improbability of it is irrelevant because if it didn't occur we wouldn't be here to make that call. For the 999,999,999 times there aren't the right elements for life to develop there also isn't anyone to say that it hasn't, the only time you get to comment on the rareity of it occuring is on the times when it does. Evolution is like playing the lottery once and winning the jackpot, you could then either claim you got lucky, or turn around and go "well, I just won, this game is rigged, everyone must win!" dismissing evolution because it's too perfect is akin to doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wol. Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 If a moral standard is reached by social conditioning throughout our evolution then this must be part of every human alive. Not following this standard shows an ability to perceive new thoughts and ideas. Where these thoughts and ideas come from is what I was thinking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 When they refer to god in the Bible as "I AM" I believe the scripture is saying that God is the perfect entity or morals, feelings, emotions, and judgement. the I AM part I think says to me that God isn't around or in all of us, but it's up to us to choose to live as he does and by his rules. I think back then they mis understood this "I AM" part as though it was another person, rather than thinking "we all say I am so the scripture must be telling us, these are the rules in which we should aim to live our life by". basically the bible is a moral story just like fairy tales. It's just a bit more epic that's all. We all say "I Am" we all know that a lot of the parables in the bible and some religious laws are considered today common sense, and all the bible is there for is for guidance, without the need for there to be a god that created us, and told only some people that he existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 If a moral standard is reached by social conditioning throughout our evolution then this must be part of every human alive. Not following this standard shows an ability to perceive new thoughts and ideas. Where these thoughts and ideas come from is what I was thinking about. Curiosity and skepticism. These two things let us do things that we shouldn't, and let us push the boundaries of our knowledge. For every 10 people you tell not to do something, there will be at least 3 that ask why not, and at least 1 that does it anyway. This is how we develop new ideas, you may see the guy jumping off the top of a cliff after he's told not to as an idiot, but he's really a pioneer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Have you read about evolution or studied it in any way in an attempt to understand a bit better? There is masses of information freely available that can explain it to you. Once you understand how evolution works, the pieces all fall into place. There is absolutely no reason why complexity in nature cannot be squared with evolution. Playing devils advocate a little, the complexity of evolution is almost *too good to be true*. Evolution is a fabulous system, so good, so perfect, so all encompassing it could almost have been designed on purpose. There's nothing perfect about it - it's an inevitablity. If lifeforms inhabit an environment, they will evolve according to the struggle for existence in that particluar environment. The results of that process are just that - the results of that process. For example - we are hardly perfectly evolved beings. We are still very vulnerable to disease and death. Many of us have poor eyesight, our useless appendixes burst and kill us etc etc. What results from evolution is not perfection. Well, I think what i meant by perfection was a perfect system - it has created a thriving multi tiered ecosystem,with pretty much each species of plant or animal interdependent upon the next, all of this evolved from a splurge of presumably identical bacteria from the primordial soup on a planet that just happens to be the perfect distance from its star and protected from the worst meteor hits (any one of which would exterminate most life) by the presence of a huge planet relatively nearby who's gravity sucks just about all meteors into it instead. Now personally, I am perfectly willing to accept that all that could be a one in a billion chance, but I do very much understand why some people put things like that together with their sense of spiritualism and come up with God. As I said earlier,many intelligent, educated, well travelled people have done so and continue to do so every day. not all Christians are ignorant bible thumping zealots.I am neither, but I do grasp what they are getting at, I just choose not to agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I do love these debates, because even though I think I am an atheist, I sometimes I think I lie between agnostic and atheism. I do think the bible as a book is a fantastic epic, full of parables, religious teachings and laws even atheists can take value from. It's just that I don't believe it is the word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 There is as much absolute proof of the existance of Spiderman as there is God. So without proof it leaves only belief and I haven't got any. Spiderman exists I saw a film with him in it just the other day if he didnt exist, how could he be in a film? his existence may not be authentic (who can tell what is authentic and what isnt?) but he certainly does exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 The Ancient Hebrew name for God is YHWH..and you're quite correct without the vowels it's hard to know the exact pronunciation. . In the Hebrew language it is written .יהוה These four letters, called the Tetragrammaton (or literally meaning "having 4 letters") , are read from right to left in Hebrew and can be represented in many modern languages as YHWH or JHVH..... The divine name in the Tetragrammaton form actually appears 6,828 times in the Bible.... In many modern translations these letters are now replaced with " LORD"( in capitals), or "the Lord" or "Adonai" (Sovereign Lord). it could be Yahweh...or Jehovah or something slightly different, however my thinking on this is that the Romans/Greeks pronounced it Iova or Jehovah so presumably, they had heard this name spoken and said in the traditional manner from Jews and first century Christians.. Jehovah seems to be the more accepted pronunciation as shown in the following different languages given as examples:- Awabakal - Yehóa Bugotu - Jihova Cantonese - Yehwowah Danish - Jehova Dutch - Jehovah Efik - Jehovah English - Jehovah Fijian - Jiova Finnish - Jehova French - Jéhovah Futuna - Ihova German - Jehova Hungarian - Jehova Igbo - Jehova Italian - Geova Japanese - Ehoba Maori - Ihowa Motu - Iehova Mwala-Malu - Jihova Narrinyeri - Jehovah Nembe - Jihova Petats - Jihouva Polish - Jehowa Portuguese - Jeová Romanian - Iehova Samoan - Ieova Sotho - Jehova Spanish - Jehová Swahili - Yehova Swedish - Jehova Tahitian - Iehova Tagalog - Jehova Tongan - Jihova Venda - Yehova Xhosa - uYehova Yoruba - Jehofah Zulu - uJehova The shortened version of the divine name "Jah" is also used...such as in "Hallelu - Jah" However whatever you argue about pronunciation, nevertheless the Bible says God has a name and is a person. As for the meaning of the divine name ie the tetragrammaton YHWH is thought to be "He causes to become"...The name is a form of a Hebrew verb ha·wah′ )הוה meaning “to become,” Whatever anyone concludes for themselves is up to them...., I happen to believe there IS a Creator and he cares about the planet, it's future and mankind!.....if anyone wishes to say that I am any less well read or any less scientific because of that tenet, then so be it...we're all entitled to our opinion, i'm not going to take offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wol. Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Got to go watch The Villa so enough with the debate, time for inflammatory pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 18, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2009 Haven't read any of the thread as these religious debates are about as entertaining as the politics debates. I was raised as a Catholic, don't go to church very often anymore, and now I believe in the possibility of God. I guess I'm Agnostic. So I voted yes. I don't believe Religion is bad. In fact I think it was a major reason why the human race evolved with some sort of morality. I think the thought of God punishing you for doing bad things was the early substitute for law enforcement. Anyway, put it this way, if I was facing death, as in I knew I was going to die very shortly, I'd be on my knees praying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Anyway, put it this way, if I was facing death, as in I knew I was going to die very shortly, I'd be on my knees praying. I'd rather do something enjoyable. I can count the amount of times God has saved people from death due to their prayer on, well, on just about anything really as it's zero. I'm sure if there is a God he wouldn't hold it against you if you had one last wank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 18, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2009 I wouldn't be praying to be saved, I'd be praying to go up instead of down And I don't want to die with my cock in my hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I wouldn't pray to god, I wouldn't want to presume on our friendship. I'd probably cuddle my mrs one last time, she has done more for me than any God could ever do. and if hell exists I hope Satan likes getting owned by a Villa fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Surely by the time you're dying it's too late to influence that? You're more likely to be seen as a brown noser trying to worm his way in, and I doubt God likes brown nosers! If he does I wouldn't want to go up anyway, can't think of anything worse than spending eternity with a whole load of suck ups. Best to just think **** it, you've done what you've done no use begging now. At least give them something interesting to write about in the autopsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts