Bazdavies79 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 God is as good an explanation as any I've heard as to why/how we're here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If God must exist, then where did God come from, surely for him to exist he must have been created, for your own very argument is that things cannot poof into existence out of nothing, and evolution cannot account for things such as morals and emotions, they have to have been created, therefore surely so much have intelligence, so any intelligent divine being must, by your very arguments, have been created. Or do the rules not apply to your God? Sorry Jondaken, could you answer this point raised please, I'm interested to know how you believe God was created. I don't know is the short answer. If I did, I'd have to BE God wouldn't I? If it did happen (that is to say, if he was created, and he hasn't just always been there) then it was a long long time ago, I did not exist, noone but God did, and all ive got to go on is a few verses at the start of Genesis and John, so I'd be a bit of a muppet to think that I did know, but no doubt a few of you think I am anyway haha. And yet you seemingly KNOW that we didn't just evolve, dispite it happening a long long time ago, and you not existing at the time, because, our computers didn't. Welcome to the world of hypocrisy my friend. It's hard to get everyone to understand a chain of thought typed down in an hour of why I believe in God. If my argument isnt rock solid its only because I'm human and make mistakes But anyway, I don't see the hypocrisy. All the other things ive explained because of what ive read in the Bible and what I see around me. The existence of God is not the same argument as how did he come in to being. Christianity is a faith. Finding proof in a faith is not going to happen, so don't look or ask for it The hypocrisy is in dismissing that one complex life form can come from nothing, and instead drawing the conclusion it was created, and then accepting that another can, with the reason "I wasn't there to see it so I don't know". No. The evidence of God existing is still here to be seen. Its everything around me. Its objects, feelings, intelligence. The evidence of things being created, is right there infront of my eyes. I don't think I needed to be there, when this computer was built, or designed, to know that it was built and designed. Understand me at all? But it's not evidence. It's still belief. Evidence implies fact. But not having evidence doesn't mean it's not right. well belief in a god is the ONLY aspect of human actions and feelings where not having evidence, proof or fact can still lead to justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 No. The evidence of God existing is still here to be seen. Its everything around me. Its objects, feelings, intelligence. The evidence of things being created, is right there infront of my eyes. I don't think I needed to be there, when this computer was built, or designed, to know that it was built and designed. Understand me at all? That's not evidence of God at all. Objects are man made, they can all be explained. Natural occuring objects? Well, rocks can be explained, water can be explained, life can be explained, science explains how EVERYTHING could have came into fruition, saying "they're there, so that's evidence for God" is bullcrap. It's not evidence for anything. There are multiple explanations for everything on earth (and yes, God is one of them, just not that likely a one) and therefore using them as evidence to support any one of them is just stupid, as they can also be used to evidence for all others. The ONLY way you can use them as evidence is if there is no other way they can have came to fruition, which just isn't true with the God explanation. Feelings are part of Evolutionary psychology (yes, emotions evolve, this explains why women are still attracted to alpha males and their survival traits, despite them being irrelevant in modern society) Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If God must exist, then where did God come from, surely for him to exist he must have been created, for your own very argument is that things cannot poof into existence out of nothing, and evolution cannot account for things such as morals and emotions, they have to have been created, therefore surely so much have intelligence, so any intelligent divine being must, by your very arguments, have been created. Or do the rules not apply to your God? Sorry Jondaken, could you answer this point raised please, I'm interested to know how you believe God was created. I don't know is the short answer. If I did, I'd have to BE God wouldn't I? If it did happen (that is to say, if he was created, and he hasn't just always been there) then it was a long long time ago, I did not exist, noone but God did, and all ive got to go on is a few verses at the start of Genesis and John, so I'd be a bit of a muppet to think that I did know, but no doubt a few of you think I am anyway haha. And yet you seemingly KNOW that we didn't just evolve, dispite it happening a long long time ago, and you not existing at the time, because, our computers didn't. Welcome to the world of hypocrisy my friend. It's hard to get everyone to understand a chain of thought typed down in an hour of why I believe in God. If my argument isnt rock solid its only because I'm human and make mistakes But anyway, I don't see the hypocrisy. All the other things ive explained because of what ive read in the Bible and what I see around me. The existence of God is not the same argument as how did he come in to being. Christianity is a faith. Finding proof in a faith is not going to happen, so don't look or ask for it The hypocrisy is in dismissing that one complex life form can come from nothing, and instead drawing the conclusion it was created, and then accepting that another can, with the reason "I wasn't there to see it so I don't know". No. The evidence of God existing is still here to be seen. Its everything around me. Its objects, feelings, intelligence. The evidence of things being created, is right there infront of my eyes. I don't think I needed to be there, when this computer was built, or designed, to know that it was built and designed. Understand me at all? But it's not evidence. It's still belief. Evidence implies fact. But not having evidence doesn't mean it's not right. Well that's where we differ then. Its evidence to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 17, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sometimes I wonder why I bother posting at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heystally! Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Well that's where we differ then. Its evidence to me. You'd be the most frustrating prosecuter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. That.....is....****....immense. Did you come up with that? that is going to be my sig..... dude that's awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateer Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 No. If I ever did think there was actually a singular supreme deity, full of love and benevolence, life's filthy lessons have demonstrated he ain't around. On the off-chance that he does, he's obviously more than a bit of a word removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 'Thou shalt have no God but Me surely by God putting that into "his word" ..he is acknowledging the presence of other Gods ?? Exactly, because at the time there *were* other Gods, it was a competitive business. generally speaking people had as many gods as they could, and the Jews were no exception. So this was the deal - I'm a good God, a really, really good God, in fact I am so good I can do the work of all the other Gods ... this God, Yahweh was a 'jealous' God,he wanted all that love for his little own self And all was fine until Jesus came along, preaching the imminent end of the world, and the jews had best get their act together, cos God wasn't happy about the way the Jews had been interpreting his commandments all this time Another prophet of doom? Yes, until Paul decided, some time after Jesus was nailed up,that actually, he wasn't a prophet, he was a God ...... Now there's a radical idea. i wonder what possessed him (apart from the visions which I think we can all discount as being, erm, poetic license) none of which, even if you accept it as truth, disproves the existence of God by the way, it is just a challenge to the commonly held Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 lessons are learnt from that experience if we understand that the goodness comes from us as human beings not from some celestial doler out of decency. some good answers chaps .. another one to consider , without a God we would have no Theology Theology is the study of God and religious truth studying the underlying message rather than taking them directly on faith ..indeed it lead to the founding of most colleges in early times .. so God gives us Theology , which lead to education ..which allowed mankind to create a code of laws , based around the word of ..God .. so Humanity is just another concept of saying one abides by a certain code ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 That.....is....****....immense. Did you come up with that? that is going to be my sig..... dude that's awesome Yep, I consider myself somewhat of a modern day religious philosopher. Of course everyone else just sees me as an arrogant atheist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Intelligence the result of creation? Where did you get that from? Why did initial intelligence have to be "created". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. I dont know that this is valid, because I'm not sure that the conclusion is justified by the premises in this line of argument I think the logical conclusion from this line of argument is 'Your God cannot have been the creator', which is a radically different conclusion to 'Your God doesnt exist' Furthermore, I am not sure that you can apply 'normal' attributes like intelligence to a paranormal/supernatural entity in any event If their God does exist, then he exists (according to them) in a manner which is beyond human comprehension, so this line of argument fails in any event. Sorry :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. Alfie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heystally! Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Didn't God supposedly create man in his own image? So if man was created as an intelligent being, then it was because God was intelligent? Signed: D. Advocat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Intelligence the result of creation? Where did you get that from? Why did initial intelligence have to be "created". because god is the creator of everything, even himself. so he had to create intelligence, otherwise how did he get it? how did he even exist in the beginning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Didn't God supposedly create man in his own image? So if man was created as an intelligent being, then it was because God was intelligent? Signed: D. Advocat. Yeah but he created animals too, so he is a piglet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 lessons are learnt from that experience if we understand that the goodness comes from us as human beings not from some celestial doler out of decency. some good answers chaps .. another one to consider , without a God we would have no Theology Theology is the study of God and religious truth studying the underlying message rather than taking them directly on faith ..indeed it lead to the founding of most colleges in early times .. so God gives us Theology , which lead to education ..which allowed mankind to create a code of laws , based around the word of ..God .. so Humanity is just another concept of saying one abides by a certain code ?? You can point back at a lot of things that are ingrained in our culture, things like music and art, that were all heavily influenced by religion. Now, this is most likely just coincidence, the cultural explosion in human history (which is said to have occurred around 10,000 years ago) was around the same time that religion started to take a hold. Interestingly, religion may have been what pushed us forward, but now it is what is holding us back. Is that an indictment of religion, or those that control it? In the past we've proven that we're not scared to drop religions when they cease to be relevant, there's many that have died out, yet today we seem tied to the current ones, with little chance of progress from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heystally! Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Didn't God supposedly create man in his own image? So if man was created as an intelligent being, then it was because God was intelligent? Signed: D. Advocat. Yeah but he created animals too, so he is a piglet? It's not said that he created animals in his own image. Just man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Now for the big one, intelligence CANNOT have been created, and I have 100% bona fide proof of that. Your "creator" must have had it. If intelligence is the result of creation, then the thing that created intelligence was, wait for it, UNINTELLIGENT. Now, as intelligence is simply "the ability to comprehend", and to make something you have to comprehend what you are doing, you have to understand the process you're carrying out, a creator, by definition HAS TO have intelligence. So, unless you believe intelligence can have occurred by chance, in which case you cannot rule out everything else occurring by chance, your God was either a big dummy or doesn't exist. Didn't God supposedly create man in his own image? So if man was created as an intelligent being, then it was because God was intelligent? Signed: D. Advocat. Yeah but he created animals too, so he is a piglet? Funneh, except teh Bible does not say that he created them in his own image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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