Philippe Coutinho

[Delphinho123]

Coutinho has the unenviable problem of also being very closely tied to our manager for obvious reasons. 

If he plays poorly, which he has at times, he’ll get criticised but I feel he’ll get extra criticism because people are really starting to turn on Gerrard.

Our problems lie in central midfield through poor recruitment and an unwillingness to spend big in that department. I’m not too concerned about Coutinho nor Bailey or Buendia for that matter. We don’t get our attacking players on the ball enough in space where they can hurt the opposition. Until we do, we won’t see the best of them. 

[The Fun Factory]

Should start the home games, but not all of the away ones. 

[Tom13]

2 hours ago, AVTuco said:

Coutinho should definitely keep starting, no question.

Nah. Not unless Gerrard plays a midfield which can control possession. He's not gonna play to his potential otherwise.

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, Tom13 said:

Nah. Not unless Gerrard plays a midfield which can control possession. He's not gonna play to his potential otherwise.

If he plays to his potential we have one of the best to grace the game of football. 

Before we turn to Coutinho not being at that level as reason to call him out for not being what we want from him, consider the possibility that he is not entirely responsible for the way we setup and approach each fixture.

While managers and coaches can only offer a strategy and plan for getting optimal outcomes from their men, and it's the men out there that must deliver on that or try and find a way themselves in the moment, at some stage we have to discern who is responsible. At this stage I don't think it's fair at all to lay fault on Coutinho. Wanting him to be more is one thing, making it out like the guy is anything less than a wizard that can and will craft nothing into moments of gold with a single flick, among other displays of mastery. 

Unfortunately the conversation so quickly becomes one of sourcing quantifiable justification for how a player has influenced the game, and overlooks the impact a player has had or can have that won't be recorded.

In my view it's actually those moments of involvement that give you the real measure of a player. Not measuring them solely through data. If you are observing what's going on it's there for anyone to notice should they want to acknowledge.

Look at the goal Coutinho scored against Manchester City as an example that is obvious to anyone, unless they are denying Coutinho's abilities at present for the sake of it. The man is a genius and executioner of skill that leaves opposition left for dead. If anyone says that's just one instance, remember what we've just established that data limits so much of what actually happens during 90 minutes and only portrays a fragment. So there's a reason why the number may be so small, it represents just a fragment.

Main comment here is to say Coutinho is still far more influential operating below his best than most of the guys who make up the contest. That's what I see when I watch him for us. A gifted player I am glad we have. I like many of our current squad but there's not a player among our ranks that is considerably above Coutinho on a regular basis.

Edited August 11, 2022 by A'Villan

[Tom13]

20 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

If he plays to his potential we have one of the best to grace the game of football. 

Before we turn to Coutinho not being at that level as reason to call him out for not being what we want from him, consider the possibility that he is not entirely responsible for the way we setup and approach each fixture.

While managers and coaches can only offer a strategy and plan for getting optimal outcomes from their men, and it's the men out there that must deliver on that or try and find a way themselves in the moment, at some stage we have to discern who is responsible. At this stage I don't think it's fair at all to lay fault on Coutinho. Wanting him to be more is one thing, making it out like the guy is anything less than a wizard that can and will craft nothing into moments of gold with a single flick, among other displays of mastery. 

Unfortunately the conversation so quickly becomes one of sourcing quantifiable justification for how a player has influenced the game, and overlooks the impact a player has had or can have that won't be recorded.

In my view it's actually those moments of involvement that give you the real measure of a player. Not measuring them solely through data. If you are observing what's going on it's there for anyone to notice should they want to acknowledge.

Look at the goal Coutinho scored against Manchester City as an example that is obvious to anyone, unless they are denying Coutinho's abilities at present for the sake of it. The man is a genius and executioner of skill that leaves opposition left for dead. If anyone says that's just one instance, remember what we've just established that data limits so much of what actually happens during 90 minutes and only portrays a fragment. So there's a reason why the number may be so small, it represents just a fragment.

Main comment here is to say Coutinho is still far more influential operating below his best than most of the guys who make up the contest. That's what I see when I watch him for us. A gifted player I am glad we have. I like many of our current squad but there's not a player among our ranks that is considerably above Coutinho on a regular basis.

Have to say I disagree. You're talking about the former Coutinho, who at one point was probably borderline world class. He's nowhere near that now. Still has flashes, but in 2022, Buendia is the better player.

[Steero113]

8 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

You're talking about the former Coutinho, who at one point was probably borderline world class.

Err, the former Coutinho was most definitely without a doubt world class. 

 

[Delphinho123]

9 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

Have to say I disagree. You're talking about the former Coutinho, who at one point was probably borderline world class. He's nowhere near that now. Still has flashes, but in 2022, Buendia is the better player.

‘borderline’ - lolz.

[Tom13]

5 minutes ago, Steero113 said:

Err, the former Coutinho was most definitely without a doubt world class. 

 

He was a level below Suarez. Depends how you define world class though.

[A'Villan]

14 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

He was a level below Suarez. Depends how you define world class though.

Barcelona paid more money than many African countries can allocate their military defence budget, that's less significant perhaps than the agreed understanding that Coutinho was brought in to be given the role that Iniesta had. It just so turned out that Barcelona changed the script and expected of Coutinho to be the replacement for the outgoing Neymar.

I'd say he qualifies as world class. I mean it's plain to see.

[rodders0223]

16 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Barcelona paid more money than many African countries can allocate their military defence budget, that's less significant perhaps than the agreed understanding that Coutinho was brought in to be given the role that Iniesta had. It just so turned out that Barcelona changed the script and expected of Coutinho to be the replacement for the outgoing Neymar.

I'd say he qualifies as world class. I mean it's plain to see.

No he isn't. What matters is here and now. Not what he did at Liverpool and not how much Barca overpaid for him.

He's not performing. He hasn't performed well for 4 years.

He shouldn't be playing.

[AvonVillain]

33 minutes ago, Steero113 said:

Err, the former Coutinho was most definitely without a doubt world class.

12 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I'd say he qualifies as world class. I mean it's plain to see.

I'll go with my Liverpool supporting chum, who concludes that in his pomp, which was essentially the entire time he was there, he was outstanding, but not world class.

[Tom13]

Certainly not laughable to say he was borderline anyway.

[Zatman]

19 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Barcelona paid more money than many African countries can allocate their military defence budget, that's less significant perhaps than the agreed understanding that Coutinho was brought in to be given the role that Iniesta had. It just so turned out that Barcelona changed the script and expected of Coutinho to be the replacement for the outgoing Neymar.

I'd say he qualifies as world class. I mean it's plain to see.

He was 5 years ago, so was Bale, Aguero, Ramos, Buffon, Iniesta, Suarez and Marcelo etc

Football moves on, he is nowhere near that player anymore or else he wouldnt be here

[Tom13]

Btw, two people with similar usernames disagreeing...took me a few seconds to realise it wasn't one user disagreeing with his own opinion. I wouldn't put that past VT actually

[A'Villan]

Coutinho not being world class and Barcelona overpaying are comments that I'm not sure i agree with but am glad it was made because it challenges me to understand why I have the view I do. And that's always welcome.

Regards the price Barca paid, that's not for me to say, I don't care enough for the business side of football to have an opinion that's worth all that much and I'm fine acknowledging that.

As for him being world class, he was. And those who are emphasising the was in that statement will find no arguments from me to say that is stilll a status that is appropriate when discussing his game. 

That said, I don't particularly feel that is a fault of his or an indication of deterioration in his ability. I think its circumstances beyond his control. And before anyone jumps to deny that, please consider that it is not Coutinho who decides he is a world class player. Almost anyone aside from him does. We assign that worth. And that is out of his control. Then you have to factor in that because of the perception that Barca overpaid, he is not worth what was paid, and that's a negative connotation associated with his name that is, again, out of his control.

My interest in any discussion would be on why he is viewed in a certain way in relation to his football ability. What makes him great, or overrated, whatever the case may be. Fwiw I think he was world class and I'm a fan of what he is doing for us. 

Not sure I'll be engaged enough to discuss the ins and outs and why I or anyone sees Coutinho as they do from here but that is because I'm not sure I'll be here in time to respond.

Edited August 11, 2022 by A'Villan

[PussEKatt]

Dosent SG realise that by playing Coutinho,with his current poor form.He is not doing himself,the team and even the player any favoures.I mean who is going to pick Coutinho for the national team on current form ?

And that applies to SG long term future at Villa and how well the team do in the PL.None of which is good.

[Tom13]

17 hours ago, A'Villan said:

As for him being world class, he was.

Well if you say so he must have been.

[Aston_Villan4]

29 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

Well if you say so he must have been.

Jurgen Klopp said he was world class. Same with Bayern’s coach when they signed him. Plenty of professionals considered him world class. Guess we should listen to little ole @Tom13 instead though?

Edited August 12, 2022 by Aston_Villan4

[Tom13]

1 minute ago, Aston_Villan4 said:

Jurgen Klopp said he was world class. Same with Bayern’s coach when they signed him. Plenty of professionals considered him world class. Guess we should listen to little ole @Tom13 instead though?

I think so yeah!

[MotoMkali]

21 hours ago, Tom13 said:

He was a level below Suarez. Depends how you define world class though.

Suarez was the 3rd best player in world football