Steven Gerrard

[Jas10]

7 minutes ago, a m ole said:

To be fair we went shit under Beale too

I agree but were we THIS shit?

[tomsky_11]

19 minutes ago, Thug said:

How on earth can you include Smith’s survival season stats in their respective PPG’s and come out with the conclusion that SG is doing a good job?

Lol do you want to actually read what I posted or what I was replying to? Did I say Gerrard was doing a good job or "I'm not saying we are where we should be with the squad we have btw"?

The point being made was Gerrard has been worse than Smith. I think that's debatable enough that the hysteria around our current situation is unwarranted.

24 minutes ago, Thug said:

If anything those stats make SGs look utterly appalling.

I think we have different views on utterly appalling. Appalling would be worse than Smith, would be relegation form, would be 1ppg territory. Gerrard's currently tracking at comfortable mid table level. Should we be better than that? Sure. But would I call it utterly appalling and deem it worthy of sacking the manager 3 games into a season? Nope.

[KMitch]

1 minute ago, Jas10 said:

I agree but were we THIS shit?

Yeah, but we were willing to look the other way because "Gerrard needs a preseason".

 

[Jas10]

1 minute ago, KMitch said:

Yeah, but we were willing to look the other way because "Gerrard needs a preseason".

 

I’ll admit, I was actually looking forward to this season and was willing to forego the shit of the last. Give a clean slate and all that.

But it has been such a bad start (while also taking into account the previous months) that I have lost it, I can’t put with this crap any longer.

I was hoping for some improvement but it’s only getting worse and it’s becoming intolerable.

I never had a strong opinion of SG, was just hoping that somehow things were going to turn out well, but my dislike for him is growing every day now… I’m desperate for us to get rid of him now and the whole backroom team (other than Cutler).

And can we please get the F rid of Danks and McPhee?!!

[nick76]

58 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Yeah don't see why not. Extend Gerrard's overall form from last season + improvement at DM + any other improvements we might make in personnel before window closes, should equal a top half finish.

Extend Gerrard’s form and we’ll be relegated, his form was getting worse as the season wore on.  

Taking an average across his tenure has a massive hole in the argument that we started well and ended very poorly from 12 points in six games at the start to 9 points in 11 games at the end.  

Our ppg as the season went on was declining and thus you extrapolate that form as it was trending and it turns into relegation fighting this season.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by nick76

[tomsky_11]

19 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

This we'd be 9th stat since he arrived doesn't mean much does it. Of the 11 games we'd already played last season before he took over that included games away to Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal and Spurs. The 3 games we've played this season haven't been against any of the better sides.

Given the end of last season keeps being brought up, what does it mean that the last 11 games of last season our only defeats were City, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, West Ham and Wolves. I don't disagree that the Bournemouth defeat is worse but it's one game lol.

26 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I'd say the odds on him getting anywhere near 48 points, never mind the 55 points of his predecessors last full season, becomes less likely the longer he stays.

i'm mean I'd say it's more likely the longer he stays because he'll be gone if we aren't getting 48 points this season.

[a m ole]

The stats aren’t great and the eye test is worse.

[tomsky_11]

6 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Extend Gerrard’s form and we’ll be relegated, his form was getting worse as the season wore on.  

Taking an average across his tenure has a massive hole in the argument that we started well and ended very poorly from 12 points in six games at the start to 9 points in 11 games at the end.  

Our ppg as the season went on was declining and thus you extrapolate that form as it was trending and it turns into relegation fighting this season.

 

Yeah, I mean if that line keeps going we'll be getting negative ppg before long...

[wict01]

26 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

There is no 52 game plus rubbish streak though is there?

The Brighton, Southampton, Leeds, Norwich, Burnley & Everton wins were good performances. As was first half against Spurs, 2bd half against United and the losses to Liverpool and City were good performance wise. 

A few meh ones in the draws with Leeds, Palace and Burnley. 

It's called inconsistency. Not 25+ games of Rubbish. But don't let the actual events get in the way of your narrative 

Can't agree that the Norwich and Everton wins were "good", very much a case of the bare minimum and in the Everton game frankly we were lucky to escape with 3 points. But even taking those into account, that's 6 "good" performances out of 25, leaving 19 to be average or worse. Even the first half of the Spurs game that lots were keen to point to, ended with us 1-0 down. Then Conte tweaks things at half time, Gerrard sits on his hands and we get absolutely taken apart by a Spurs team who had also shown were capable of being pretty flaky and inconsistent themselves.

The consistency is there, it's just consistently poor. Since he arrived, the state of performances has trended downwards after the new-manager bounce and the spike of the Brighton, Southampton and Leeds games. 

[Rolta]

18 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

I’m not reading that much into it other than it’s an additional example of how SG struggles without an assistant…

I already knew we were crap, but more and more evidence, stats and data is coming out to back that up. I haven’t seen anything positive.

I’m not exactly giving Beale credit either. 

Anyway, why do you think we are worse anyway? Why have we become a worse team with no identity, style, strategy and are basically a complete mess? What is your reasoning for the decline?

I guess I'm not inclined to draw lines between the dots on insufficient information, so I have no idea! I can agree we are not inspiring confidence right now. A lot of clubs go through these moments and they seem to come out of them in one of about fifty plus ways, so I see no point in guessing. 

[imavillan]

If we lose the next three games, which is a distinct possibility/likely hood, then I fail to see how he can keep his job having only 3 points from 6 games.

This will leave us far behind what the club would have expected.

If that happens I believe it’s time for him to go and get whoever it is in to replace and rescue the season while there is still time. 

 

[weedman]

9 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Extend Gerrard’s form and we’ll be relegated, his form was getting worse as the season wore on.  

Taking an average across his tenure has a massive hole in the argument that we started well and ended very poorly from 12 points in six games at the start to 9 points in 11 games at the end.  

Our ppg as the season went on was declining and thus you extrapolate that form as it was trending and it turns into relegation fighting this season.

 

I mean, that dotted line doesn't actually reflect the ppg and finishes below where we finished for some reason. Pretty clear looking at that we started well, got shit, then levelled out a bit. 

The dotted line drawn from Watford to the end of the season (15 games?) would be basically flat 

Not that I think he's doing particularly well mind, but that is clearly a hugely misleading way of displaying information and seems to actually show we've levelled out, rather than regressed as the season went on 

[Thug]

31 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Lol do you want to actually read what I posted or what I was replying to? Did I say Gerrard was doing a good job or "I'm not saying we are where we should be with the squad we have btw"?

The point being made was Gerrard has been worse than Smith. I think that's debatable enough that the hysteria around our current situation is unwarranted.

I think we have different views on utterly appalling. Appalling would be worse than Smith, would be relegation form, would be 1ppg territory. Gerrard's currently tracking at comfortable mid table level. Should we be better than that? Sure. But would I call it utterly appalling and deem it worthy of sacking the manager 3 games into a season? Nope.

Yh I did read your post.

And I think your version of utterly appalling is very different from many people on this board.

90% of the people that voted on whether he should stay or go after 3 games this season said ‘go’.

Imagine how appalling you must believe someone to be performing if you’d want them gone this soon.

Your headline stat in your post was the premier league PPG for each manager.  Completely ignoring the fact that one manager was in charge of a team that had just come up via the play offs (usually the team most likely to go right back down again) And the other was in charge of a team that had just got 55 points in the premier league Following heavy investment.

Its not the PPG that’s concerning.

it’s being completely played off the park by Bournemouth and Palace, and hanging on by the skin of our teeth to beat Everton.  We’re awful.  

And worse still having no idea how to plug a huge hole that Zaha was repeatedly exploiting.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Thug

[danceoftheshamen]

24 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Extend Gerrard’s form and we’ll be relegated, his form was getting worse as the season wore on.  

Taking an average across his tenure has a massive hole in the argument that we started well and ended very poorly from 12 points in six games at the start to 9 points in 11 games at the end.  

Our ppg as the season went on was declining and thus you extrapolate that form as it was trending and it turns into relegation this season.

 

Thanks for this Nick, pretty much clarifies all we need to know. I am just hopefull that all these data analysists we apparantly have working on every detail of player form & performance is also being used on the management teams performance.

Look, it is still very early in the season, I get that. But when you view that graph above it is pretty clear why the fanbase is not impressed. He really needs a result against West Ham on Sunday (& tonight at Bolton). 

Another scary thought is that in like for like games so far this season, if you swap our opening day away game at a newly promoted team from Watford to Bournemouth, we are so far averaging 2 goals worse off from the same games. Keep that up & it's clear relegation form as would make sense when looking at that graph Nick posted, Thus far it has continued the downward curve is I guess what I am saying. It simply has to go on an upward spike very soon else the signs are extremely ominous indeed!

                                   2021 - 22         2022-23     GD swing

Watford/B'mouth (a) - 2-3 L               0-2 L             (-1)       

Everton (h)                    3-0 W             2-1 W            (-2)

Palace (a)                     0-1 W             3-1 L              (-3)

West Ham (h)              1-4  L                 ?

Arsenal (a)                   3-1 L                  ?

Man City (h)                1-2  L                  ?

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by danceoftheshamen

[DeadlyDirk]

2 minutes ago, Thug said:

Yh I did read your post.

And I think your version of utterly appalling is very different from many people on this board.

90% of the people that voted on whether he should stay or go after 3 games this season said ‘go’.

Imagine how appalling you must believe someone to be performing if you’d want them gone this soon.

Your headline stat in your post was the premier league PPG for each manager.  Completely ignoring the fact that one manager was in charge of a team that had just come up via the play offs (usually the team most likely to go right back down again) And the other was in charge of a team that had just got 55 points in the premier league Following heavy investment.

Its not the PPG that’s concerning.

it’s being completely played off the park by Bournemouth and Palace, and hanging on by the skin of our teeth to beat Everton.  We’re awful.  

 

 

Just to back up what you're saying Thug.... When we look at league matches, the PPG actually looks like this....

Dean Smith - 1.39 PPG over 139 League Games

Steven Gerrard - 1.23 Over 31 League Games

If people are going to drop PPG into the equation, at least use the full figures rather then taking a small sample size to back you're own argument up. It's what politician's do, you're better than that. We all are.

[gwi1890]

43 minutes ago, a m ole said:

To be fair we went shit under Beale too

To be fair our style of play hasn’t changed since Beale left, and Beale plays a different formation at QPR.

[markavfc40]

36 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Given the end of last season keeps being brought up, what does it mean that the last 11 games of last season our only defeats were City, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, West Ham and Wolves. I don't disagree that the Bournemouth defeat is worse but it's one game lol.

 

I don't know what does it mean? flip that on its head and in the last 11 games of last season the only teams we beat were Norwich and Burnley. Throw in the first 3 games this season and in last the 14 games the only 3 teams we have beat two have been relegated and the other just escaped relegation last season and looks set to be deep in the mire again this season. 

We could waffle on about stats all we like I suppose but bottom line is results show we have gotten progressively worse the longer he has been here but more than that our own eyes tell us that performances have not improved one iota since he arrived. We have no style of play, no identity, we change formation from one game to the next, we lack fight and are way too easily bullied in games and out muscled. It is a mess and surely we should all expect better than that 9 months, two transfer windows, seven new arrivals and a full pre season on from his arrival. 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by markavfc40

[tomsky_11]

35 league games into his Arsenal tenure, Arteta was on a run of 7 without a win, taking 2 points and including defeats to Burnley, Everton and us. Gerrard's worst 7 game run is 5 points and 5 games his worst winless run. Arteta's ppg at that point equated to less than 4 points per season more than Gerrard's current ppg with arguably a better squad and much higher expectations. Seems pertinent.

[KentVillan]

The sad thing is, I think most fans weren’t actually out to get Gerrard from the start.

That early performance against Man City, where we lost but probably deserved to win, was a huge improvement on what had been served up before, and he was focused on us being more compact off the ball - something that had been a problem under Smith.

What brought that to an end was the Nakamba injury.

Then he signed Coutinho, and there was a feeling that now we had a manager who could attract big names.

But as time has gone by, there’s very little evidence of that compact off the ball approach being a consistent feature of our games. Coutinho has completely faded.

Whatever’s going on is a coaching / management issue. Yes some players are underperforming, but he has a big squad, and players don’t get punished for underperforming - they seem to get punished more for not sucking up to Stevie, or not being his kind of person.

And to the people clinging to the idea that we just need a couple more signings… come on, we comfortably have at least the 10th best squad in the league. It’s madness to think that our points total this year is a reflection of the squad. It’s an expensive squad with loads of injury cover, and game changers on the bench. It’s not perfect, but most teams outside the Champions League clubs have big flaws too. Good managers work around it.

Some of the excuses in this thread are just pride, because people backed Gerrard as a big step up from Smith, and people are clawing about for an answer that doesn’t amount to “I was wrong”.

[Made In Aston]

1 hour ago, Jas10 said:

I didn’t say Beale was any good

But at least he has an idea in terms of setting up a team and coaching.

The manager is lost without a competent assistant.

Critchley has just arrived and needs to make an impact asap, if he’s any good that is.

But why are we paying SG when he barely fulfils the roles and responsibilities of a PL manager?

The most worrying thing is that it's not just Gerrard when it comes to tactics. We have 2 other assistants who provide input, yet we look completely clueless and do weird things like deliver deep crosses all day against Bournemouth when we have no height up front. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Made In Aston