Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Indigo]

52 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

what fit, can you elaborate ? 

There's more (rumoured) detail in his thread but after people were saying he threw a wobbler over not being subbed on against Arsenal. Middle fingers, throwing of water bottles at coaches etc. None of which caught on camera, obviously.

[VillanousOne]

53 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I don't get this cohesion complaint to be honest. 

In the summer, most accepted that losing Jack late in the window was going to be an issue.

Against Watford, we started with young and el ghazi out wide. Against Brentford, we started with carney and young in CM.

Buendia, after a year in the championship, is not up to full prem speed. Bailey, arguably could be our best player, hasn't been able to start a game for us. 

Ings and Watkins are learning to play together and we've tried a different formation. 

And yet, people are surprised that cohesion might be an issue early on in the season. 

And the same people who seem to have no patience, are the same people that criticise the manager for relying on Jack too much in previous years. 

 

I know all teams suffer from injuries and disruption, but people seem to be ignoring the lack of preseason, injuries, internationals, key coaching staff and Gresford leaving, plus covid problems. I genuinely don’t think Dean knows what his best tactics and starting team are, he’s been playing poker with some of the deck missing.

but now we have most players back and fit the excuses have to stop and we need to push on and hopefully it’s not with 352.

Edited October 25, 2021 by VillanousOne

[TRO]

2 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

Mid Championship to mid PL is hardly marginal. Secondly this constant mention of the money spent needs some context. We were virtually bankrupt having thrown away tens of millions through terrible financial and football management. So much so that we couldn’t pay our bills let alone attract or afford any decent players on to the books. So we had a squad full of players who were at the end of their careers or here only on loan. But you know that. 
 

The money we spent in the first summer after promotion was hardly enough to put a competitive squad together and in fact it was only just enough. The second summer after huge changes to our recruitment team we improved from relegation fodder to mid table. 
 

Third summer we lost our talisman and probably the single most important player we have had for I don’t remember how long. We sold him for £100m and spent £95m. We’ve hardly been Man City or Chelsea. Does it only count if we win matches on a shoestring? We’ll be waiting a long time if it does. 
 

Dean makes mistakes there is no doubt, but criticism of his ability in relation to his budget is way wide of the mark. 

you seem to be answering an agenda that wasn't writtenby me.....not in the context you have answered it, any way.

I was attempting to put some perspective back in to the debate.....We have spent some serious dough Dave and sure we have lost our talisman, one of the few we had, who could carry ( and keep) the ball with aplomb.

In an effort to balance the progression argument, you chose to explain one element, that seems bonafide to me....but when it is explained in a different slant, you chose to ignore that.

so what is your view as to why?, (with so much emphasis on progress) do you explain our wins in 4 segments of 20 games each......7-7-6-6......in the last 20 games we have won 7 and the previous 20 games we won 7, the 20 games before that was 6 and the 20 before that was 6..so that is progress granted....but marginal, in my view.

now I look at that and struggle to see progress other than marginal,  from that perpective.

I am not advocating, knee jerk reaction or sacking of managers, but what I am advocating, is an acceptance of a balanced argument......we are not in a crisis and we are not in dreamland either......but we need to identify our weaknesses, while accepting our strengths as accomplished tasks.....moving forward we need to improve with tangible indicators.

I am not criticising Dean in relation to his budget, just making observations of how the owners might think....I am dubious of money being spent, because I have always been an advocate of it having to be spent wisely....all it gives any manager is an opportunity.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by TRO

[DCJonah]

Just now, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

We have a tendency to turn into prime Bayern Munich when least expected.

Let's hop this is the case again for all concerned.

I still want to see what we look like with a fully fit Bailey and an up to speed Buendia. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I still want to see what we look like with a fully fit Bailey and an up to speed Buendia. 

Traore as well.

Would love to see Traore right, Bailey left?

Buendia supporting a striker perhaps.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Plus Sanson tearing up the midfield. Throwing bottles at the opposition! 

[Peter Griffin]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Plus Sanson tearing up the midfield. Throwing bottles at the opposition! 

Don't forget giving them the finger too

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

3 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

you seem to be answering an agenda that wasn't writtenby me.....

I quoted from your post, if you didn’t write it I’d get your pass word changed.
 

I was answering that particular point, not the entire post, which is why I took that particular part of your post. I recognise and have commented on many of our current problems. My views are pretty balanced I believe on the whole. We have spent an awful lot of money , but surely you can see the context? If Chelsea had spent that sort of money, they probably did,  on top of the massive and talented squad they had, in the same time scale, that’s a huge difference to starting virtually from scratch as we did. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Traore as well.

Would love to see Traore right, Bailey left?

Buendia supporting a striker perhaps.

but are we falling in to the trap of too many attacking players, when our achilles is keeping the ball.

I am being devils advocate JV.

do Man U and PSG fall in to the same trap?.....How many attackers did Liverpool have to dismantle Man U?.....4?

In my view, its 4 but the 4 have to be on their game, thats the key for me and they was........The mistake for me in football sometimes is player playing crap,i.e midfield,  put another one on to help......No hook him, and replace him and keep the shape, is my idea...always exceptions of course.

Edited October 25, 2021 by TRO

[DCJonah]

21 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Traore as well.

Would love to see Traore right, Bailey left?

Buendia supporting a striker perhaps.

Yeah, that's what I want to see. 

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I quoted from your post, if you didn’t write it I’d get your pass word changed.
 

I was answering that particular point, not the entire post, which is why I took that particular part of your post. I recognise and have commented on many of our current problems. My views are pretty balanced I believe on the whole. We have spent an awful lot of money , but surely you can see the context? If Chelsea had spent that sort of money, they probably did,  on top of the massive and talented squad they had, in the same time scale, that’s a huge difference to starting virtually from scratch as we did. 

No, No problems with the password, all clear.

well in that case I misrepresented, my point.

To recap, I was making an alternative view to the popular format for progression.....the money aspect was a caveat of folk thinking he has had no financial support towards that progression......I then proceeded to identifiy and altenative view of stats to represent our progress....to which I have no idea, (despite me asking), what you thought.

Maybe it was something you picked up, but for me was not my main point.....I'm sure you know by now Dave, what someones intentions are when they are write, can be picked up differently by a recipient.....hence my explanations.

I accept what you are saying about, how difficult it was from the start but the essence of my post was relating to progression.....we are winning, relatively no more games, than 80 games ago....thats fact not opinion.

 

 

[Peter Griffin]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

but are we failing in to the trap of too many attacking players, when our achilles is keeping the ball.

I am being devils advocate JV.

do Man U and PSG fall in to the same trap?.....How many attackers did Liverpool have to dismantle Man U?.....4?

In my view, its 4 but the 4 have to be on their game, thats the key for meand they was........The mistake for me in football sometimes is player playing crap,i.e midfield,  put another one on to help......No hook him, and replace him and keep the shape, is my idea...always exceptions of course.

Love it...Man Utd, PSG and Villa in the same breath 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Love it...Man Utd, PSG and Villa in the same breath 

Pete, you tinker.....not comparing teams, just situations.

[Vive_La_Villa]

 

22 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

Before debating whether Dean is able to rectify our current problems, I think we need to consider whether DS actually believes that 5-3-2 is a problem, or whether he still believes it's right for us.

After the match he was adamant that it wasn't the system that was wrong it was the players who let him down. I know he was very frustrated and angry after that shocking display, so I don't know whether that was his actual belief or just reactive upset.

In order for Dean to start to put right our current match play woes, he first needs to understand and accept the root causes. This isn't the time for stubbornness, it's the time for doing whatever is necessary to get our best players into a system that suits their combined talents. Next Sunday against West Ham will give us our first look at Smith's thinking on our best way forward.

If he sticks with 5-3-2 I think he wants the sack.  Now I know that sounds silly but I sometimes think when manages start doing irrational things it’s because they’ve had enough and are happy to leave.  Seen it with Bruce and Lambert.

Now I don’t think that’s the case with Smith but i also don’t think he’s that much of a stubborn or blind manager that can’t see how much they are struggling with 5-3-2 and we haven’t really got time for the players to learn to play the system without costing us more points.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[Peter Griffin]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

If he sticks with 5-3-2 I think he wants the sack.

If he sticks with 532 I think he will get his wish

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

we are winning, relatively no more games, than 80 games ago....thats fact not opinion.

That’s probably true at the moment and if that continues we and therefore Dean will have a problem. I think most people accept that he should be afforded more time but equally he could be in trouble if we were to lose a run of games. As always it’s generally a results game. 

At any point it’s always possible to take a snap shot and say look he’s brilliant or look he’s rubbish. The bigger picture or pictures are always the view that the board will take and of course we don’t see everything as fans. Let’s see what the next month brings. 

[zenda]

Will Dean ever have the gall-balls to drop Mings? Would love to see him benched on Sunday (along with Axel). Ditch the three/five at the back. Hause to come in as LCB and not let Antonio bully him. Bailey and Bert burn the bastards on the wings.  

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

That’s probably true at the moment and if that continues we and therefore Dean will have a problem. I think most people accept that he should be afforded more time but equally he could be in trouble if we were to lose a run of games. As always it’s generally a results game. 

At any point it’s always possible to take a snap shot and say look he’s brilliant or look he’s rubbish. The bigger picture or pictures are always the view that the board will take and of course we don’t see everything as fans. Let’s see what the next month brings. 

Dave....check out the last 80 games, break it down into segments of 4...... 20 games each a mini snapshot......and see it for yourself.

I am loathe to puts words in folks mouths.....but you make your own mind up.

[DaveAV1]

23 minutes ago, TRO said:

Dave....check out the last 80 games, break it down into segments of 4...... 20 games each a mini snapshot......and see it for yourself.

I am loathe to puts words in folks mouths.....but you make your own mind up.

Why? There are segments called seasons that are made up of 38 games. At the end of the season we know where we are, at the moment over the period of the last two segments that have been completed we finished 17th and 11th. Within those seasons there were highs and lows. Arbitrarily choosing other periods only shows when we did well and when we did badly.
 

We have an army of stats gatherers, who can probably tell you how many times Tyrone Mings blinked or how often Ollie Watkins scratched his left knee. I’d assume there is a purpose to these figures because we’re paying someone to do it and their input may be beneficial somehow in the future. I don’t really see the point in retrospectively dividing results up in to segments over a period of two years. It’s a harmless enough pastime I suppose. I’ve recently taken up fishing, which isn’t proving to be too difficult to analyse. I’m losing and the fish are winning. 

[villabromsgrove]

3-5-2 works well for the best teams, because they've got the right players (including 3 strong and aerially dominant CB's) to operate it optimally.

5-3-2 is the weaker teams version of this system, because player for player they're just not good enough.

4-3-3 is probably the best system for a team with an abundance of talented attacking players, but it needs a strong reliable back 4 unit to act as a safety net for the two rows of three pushing on.

4-2-3-1 is a step back from max attack to cover a team with less reliable defenders.

Dean and his fellow coaches have to decide which system(s) will maximise the abilities of our best players, while at the same time minimise the damage from the mistakes our less reliable players continue to make.