Team shape, tactics and personnel

[allani]

14 minutes ago, hippo said:

We are not talking about whether or not current squad have top 6 - 8 calibre 

We are talking if there enough quality there to be Watford at home.

To be fair this is the EXACTLY point that was being made.  Some of our players HAVE been linked to better clubs Luiz (Arsenal), McGinn (Man Utd), Cash (Atletico), Ollie (Arsenal).  My point is that it doesn't matter if McGinn (for example) is linked to Man Utd.  That in itself is not a reason to not be looking to sell him in the summer.  As @TRO wisely said - it is about having the right balance within the squad.  Regardless of how good they may be individually or whether they may be a success at a "better" club - Luiz / McGinn are not working here, at least not together.  I can see Luiz doing really well in Spain and looking like we dropped a ******* selling him.  It isn't about individual quality it is about collective balance.  And we don't have that. 

[allani]

7 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I honestly do think it's a top 8 squad. We did more with less last season.

No we didn't.  We did more for about 1/3 of a season and then spent 2/3 of the season playing like a team battling relegation.  Our form between January and October was awful.  I'm not saying it is better now but we have the same issues now.  We are a disjointed / unbalanced team.  When we get it right we can look superb and can string a load of good results together.  But when things don't click we struggle to make it work.

[Dale]

3 minutes ago, allani said:

No we didn't.  We did more for about 1/3 of a season and then spent 2/3 of the season playing like a team battling relegation.  Our form between January and October was awful.  I'm not saying it is better now but we have the same issues now.  We are a disjointed / unbalanced team.  When we get it right we can look superb and can string a load of good results together.  But when things don't click we struggle to make it work.

Our points haul last season would generally be good enough for top ten. Was more than in MON's first season. 

Some seasons that gets you 7th. Most 8-9th.

[lexicon]

6 minutes ago, allani said:

If this is true - why has CDM been the most talked about position in every transfer window thread for the past **** knows how many years?  I mean I literally cannot remember the last time when 90% of the transfer conversation on this board wasn't about the need to strengthen the centre of the pitch.  Anyways, I'm not trying to pick a fight here.  Gerrard needs to find a way of making something tick very quickly so that hopefully we can strengthen in the summer and hopefully (finally!) end up with a team that don't blow so hot or cold. UTV.

While we're light there and I agree that it's an area that we can strengthen, we've performed fine in many games without a better player there and I don't see why we couldn't get a top ten finish with a midfield three of Sanson, McGinn and Luiz, if used correctly. 

The problem is this weird insistence on the FBs playing as wingers and the CMs covering too wide. It's just silly. 

[mykeyb]

On 19/02/2022 at 17:55, Keyblade said:

I'm willing to give him time, at least a preseason and summer window, but it makes me wonder why we signed another manager who has to learn and adapt on the job. I'm not one to believe the Purslow conspiracy theories, but it's such an odd appointment.

This is the crux for me. I wonder if Gerrard would have even been on the radar if it wasn't for Purslow.......

What I genuinely don't get is who he is looking to replace in our starting 11. Cash probably Konsa and Ming's have been mainly solid. Yes you can make an argument for Dougie and SJM. Courtinho no, Buendia, hope not. JJ not. Yes to both Ings and Watkins. So possible 4 or 5 players. That's going to cost 200 million so how much can he raise from selling those 4?

And if that doesn't work then who else does he look at changing.

A different system with a quality DM might well garner a similar number of points.

 

 

[hippo]

1 hour ago, allani said:

To be fair this is the EXACTLY point that was being made.  Some of our players HAVE been linked to better clubs Luiz (Arsenal), McGinn (Man Utd), Cash (Atletico), Ollie (Arsenal).  My point is that it doesn't matter if McGinn (for example) is linked to Man Utd.  That in itself is not a reason to not be looking to sell him in the summer.  As @TRO wisely said - it is about having the right balance within the squad.  Regardless of how good they may be individually or whether they may be a success at a "better" club - Luiz / McGinn are not working here, at least not together.  I can see Luiz doing really well in Spain and looking like we dropped a ******* selling him.  It isn't about individual quality it is about collective balance.  And we don't have that. 

We should still have enough "balance" to beat Watford at home though .

[TRO]

2 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

I think the official line was “oh no Coutinho is gone” but behind the scenes it was “grand, now we can sign Van Dijk”. It was the same window I believe. He was still there when Mane and Salah were. Selling him and buying Van Dijk is what catapulted them to winning the two big trophies. Anyway we’re a while away from that yet

And no we haven’t replaced Barry. We embarked on a period of asset stripping, which culminated in the club almost ceasing to exist and we’re really only a position to add a player of Barry’s calibre in that position now (and even that’s arguable). 

Not being funny, but many wouldn't get why Van Dyk made such a huge difference.....Thats what the platform is, to play from.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, allani said:

I think we are arguing the same thing.  For me neither Bissouma nor Gareth Barry are CDMs in the way that I think others have described them.  I could see the "target" trio being something along the lines of a Barry, Bissouma, JJ type midfield.  Barry is great at reading the game, was good at retaining possession and always seemed to have time on the ball to pick out the best option - be that the simple pass to the guy next to him or a more progressive ball forwards, Bissouma (from what I have seen) seems like more of a driver - get the ball and take it forwards before passing on to someone else.  And then JJ as the slightly more "attacking" member looking to burst forward and beyond the two supporting attackers.  So if you look at the three midfield qualities being "ball winning", "ball retention" and "ball progression" - I don't see us trying for a midfielder who is good at just the first of those.  I think we will be looking to sign two players whose main skills are in ball retention (with JJ being more about ball progression).  I think we are OK at winning the ball back (although our midfield are guilty of letting the opposition past them and not tracking back well enough).  Our big issue is that we aren't good enough at retaining the ball when we get it back when we are under pressure.  Too often we lose the ball in midfield or have Mings / McGinn (but not exclusively them) try a ridiculous Hollywood pass or the aimless punt down the channel for Ollie to chase.  That isn't to say that they shouldn't / won't be good tacklers.  Far from it.  But when I think of Gareth Barry I remember him on the ball and just looking like he had so much time that he could sit down, have a cuppa, read the back page of the paper and then make the pass - more so than him making last minute tackles.

Whether its winning the ball, losing the ball or progressing it.....it all comes under the heading of Control.....and in midfield we struggle for control.

The CDM perhaps confuses things because fans have varying views of what that entails....

The fact remains, those controlling elements are alluding us and we need to get players who can help us with it.

I think to then play wing backs....exacerbates an already weak position, which is what I think SG has inadvertently done.

We might be debating one issue here.....but this has now become a collection of issues.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, allani said:

To be fair this is the EXACTLY point that was being made.  Some of our players HAVE been linked to better clubs Luiz (Arsenal), McGinn (Man Utd), Cash (Atletico), Ollie (Arsenal).  My point is that it doesn't matter if McGinn (for example) is linked to Man Utd.  That in itself is not a reason to not be looking to sell him in the summer.  As @TRO wisely said - it is about having the right balance within the squad.  Regardless of how good they may be individually or whether they may be a success at a "better" club - Luiz / McGinn are not working here, at least not together.  I can see Luiz doing really well in Spain and looking like we dropped a ******* selling him.  It isn't about individual quality it is about collective balance.  And we don't have that. 

Precisely.

Edited February 21, 2022 by TRO

[a m ole]

On 20/02/2022 at 16:16, OutByEaster? said:

If we're playing our full backs as wingers, then is there a case for playing our best wide defenders in midfield.

A sort of:

-------------------------Martinez-----------------------

Cash---------Konsa---------Mings--------Digne

-------Chambers-----Luiz-----Young--------------

---------------Buendia-----Coutinho-----------------

--------------------------Watkins--------------------------

So that when we have the ball, we're a bit more natural as:

--------------------------Martinez------------------------

-----------------Konsa---------Mings------------------

-Chambers-----------Luiz-----------------Young--

---------------Buendia-----Coutinho-----------------

--Cash---------------Watkins--------------Digne---

Try not to get too hung up on Luiz and Watkins - replace them with your preference in your head if you like - for me those aren't the problem we need to fix, it's our imbalance down the sides.

I know it sounds bonkers and it's really harsh on Ramsey - but I really think we need to look at something radical if we're going to be pushing to make the system work.

 

I find myself agreeing with your analysis a lot, and while I don’t particularly enjoy the line up you put out there it highlights where I see the problems.

Ramsey emergence - he’s shown to be thriving at this level but for me it’s a gift and a curse to the 4-3-2-1. Playing as one of the three, he’s acting more like a traditional 8 and as it’s leaving us with 2 centre mids not fully able to cover the insanely high fullbacks either side. I think the staff need to accept that if Ramsey plays, the 10s need to play wider (which they obviously can and have their whole career) and play a 4-2-3-1 with less attacking full backs.

The other is the Premier League level quality as a winger of both full backs. They’re both very good at attacking fullback roles in a usual 4-*-* system, but since we effectively attack as a 2-3-4-1, they need to be good enough to run rings around their opposite number and they’re not good enough as out and out wingers to play that role for more than half the game.

Taking on your idea for something more experimental, what if we played better wingers at full back and more defensive midfielders? I don’t really buy this idea of Chambers as a midfielder but as you said let’s not get too hung up on the personnel.

              Martinez

 Konsa Chambers Mings 

Young McGinn Luiz Bailey

Buendia Watkins Coutinho

Where Chambers moves in between McGinn and Luiz in to create a midfield 3 but drops back as a centre back to allow Konsa and Mings to cover in the absence of the fullbacks. A hybrid of the current system and a 3-4-3 which gets better players in wide positions and is more defensively solid. Bailey as a wing back might raise questions but it’s where he played in his cameo appearance I believe.

Honestly though, I would rather play the same formation and personnel we already are but stop getting the fullbacks so far up and allow the 10s to get a bit deeper into the channel.

Edited February 21, 2022 by a m ole

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, a m ole said:

I find myself agreeing with your analysis a lot, and while I don’t particularly enjoy the line up you put out there it highlights where I see the problems.

Ramsey emergence - he’s shown to be thriving at this level but for me it’s a gift and a curse to the 4-3-2-1. Playing as one of the three, he’s acting more like a traditional 8 and as it’s leaving us with 2 centre mids not fully able to cover the insanely high fullbacks either side. I think the staff need to accept that if Ramsey plays, the 10s need to play wider (which they obviously can and have their whole career) and play a 4-2-3-1 with less attacking full backs.

The other is the Premier League level quality as a winger of both full backs. They’re both very good at attacking fullback roles in a usual 4-*-* system, but since we effectively attack as a 2-3-4-1, they need to be good enough to run rings around their opposite number and they’re not good enough as out and out wingers to play that role for more than half the game.

Taking on your idea for something more experimental, what if we played better wingers at full back and more defensive midfielders? I don’t really buy this idea of Chambers as a midfielder but as you said let’s not get too hung up on the personnel.

              Martinez

 Konsa Chambers Mings 

Young McGinn Luiz Bailey

Buendia Watkins Coutinho

Where Chambers moves in between McGinn and Luiz in to create a midfield 3 but drops back as a centre back to allow Konsa and Mings to cover in the absence of the fullbacks. A hybrid of the current system and a 3-4-3 which gets better players in wide positions and is more defensively solid. Bailey as a wing back might raise questions but it’s where he played in his cameo appearance I believe.

Honestly though, I would rather play the same formation and personnel we already are but stop getting the fullbacks so far up and allow the 10s to get a bit deeper into the channel.

I think with the personnel we have, it could be a decent shout, that....it has a more robust look about it.....maybe Ramsey for Young, using Bailey as the asymmetrical winger, with licence to switch flanks on demand.

quite like it.

[Dale]

6 hours ago, TRO said:

maybe they just can't do, what he is asking them to do.

Maybe what he's asking them to do is easily defended against? The shapes look like an instruction, that is being implemented (see images). 

[sparrow1988]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

Not being funny, but many wouldn't get why Van Dyk made such a huge difference.....Thats what the platform is, to play from.

And conversely you put Van Dijk in our team and he would struggle. Their players higher up the pitch make it so much easier for their defenders. 

[wilko154]

This is the way I see it, and the way that I think will fix our current problems.

Right now we have two wings backs who are attacking at the same time. Digne and Cash go forward, McGinn and Ramsey drop into the full back space; leaving Luiz to look after the midfield alone. Often Luiz pushes on to help with the attack leaving the midfield exposed.

Against Brighton I would take Luiz out, and play Chambers at DM. Drill into the wing backs that they can't both go forward at the same time, they can push on a little, but they have to be able to defend the full back position. Now when Digne goes forward, Mings covers the left full back area, Chambers drops in to CB and Konsa/Cash cover the right hand side. McGinn and Ramsey are now free to look after the midfield with one of them able to push a little further forward to help with possesion.

This is exactly how Man City and Liverpool play, and it's something that is currently leaving us exposed.

Chambers at DM isn't a long term option, but it will improve the way the team unit performs until Nakamba is back fit, and we can buy a dedicated player in the Summer.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I personally think you should play your system and players need to learn to play that way. If they can’t then they get replaced. If the system is flawed regardless of what players come in then we’re ****. 

[MrBlack]

2 hours ago, wilko154 said:

This is the way I see it, and the way that I think will fix our current problems.

Right now we have two wings backs who are attacking at the same time. Digne and Cash go forward, McGinn and Ramsey drop into the full back space; leaving Luiz to look after the midfield alone. Often Luiz pushes on to help with the attack leaving the midfield exposed.

Against Brighton I would take Luiz out, and play Chambers at DM. Drill into the wing backs that they can't both go forward at the same time, they can push on a little, but they have to be able to defend the full back position. Now when Digne goes forward, Mings covers the left full back area, Chambers drops in to CB and Konsa/Cash cover the right hand side. McGinn and Ramsey are now free to look after the midfield with one of them able to push a little further forward to help with possesion.

This is exactly how Man City and Liverpool play, and it's something that is currently leaving us exposed.

Chambers at DM isn't a long term option, but it will improve the way the team unit performs until Nakamba is back fit, and we can buy a dedicated player in the Summer.

Like the sound of that. Anything that means our full backs aren't spent by 60 minutes, and we have cover ready when they go forward works for me.  At the moment we just have gaps everywhere. 

[Dale]

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

I personally think you should play your system and players need to learn to play that way. If they can’t then they get replaced. If the system is flawed regardless of what players come in then we’re ****. 

The system is flawed.

Obviously, when you're an old firm team in Scotland you have the ball a lot, and the personnel are to a man better than almost every other team in the league. A system that requires you to have by far the better players will fail at 18 clubs in the Premier league, and 10 teams in the SPL. It just so happens that his previous experience was running the system in one of the two teams it'd work for in the SPL, no amount of purchases in our budget would make it applicable here, its way too easy to counter. 

 

[Zatman]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I personally think you should play your system and players need to learn to play that way. If they can’t then they get replaced. If the system is flawed regardless of what players come in then we’re ****. 

Of course and nobody would disagree but trying it mid season when we still need points is stupid. If he tried it after 30 games and we had 40 points nobody would really care

[GingerCollins29]

We're losing games because we're gifting teams chance after chance because the full backs are out of position and two midfielders have to drop back, leaving gaping holes everywhere.

Change the system ffs.

[duke313]

1 hour ago, GingerCollins29 said:

We're losing games because we're gifting teams chance after chance because the full backs are out of position and two midfielders have to drop back, leaving gaping holes everywhere.

Change the system ffs.

Might also be our attackers.  We had 20 shots vs. Watford, only 1 on target. Only 2 on target vs. Newcastle.