Team shape, tactics and personnel

[hippo]

29 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

yes....but 100 odd games and who have learned from......no one...learning on the job....same mistakes each week...who is giving help to these players....wheres the guidance coming from in training.....who is helping Alf Garnett word for example....or Mcginn on positional awareness....Ramsay.....Luiz......this is the problem....Ill give you Young and how he can help the attack minded players we have...but Chambers......been a bench warmer most his career......how is he going to improve us....can one of the other players go to him for guidance?????    .can he do a job..yes....but long term...squad player at best

Seriously ?

I think you are overthinking it. Some of these players survived the relegation battle - some of them got us to 11 last season. 

One of those players (making the same mistakes every week) secured a move to an elite club for a paltry £100m.

Another seems to be performing decently on loan at Newcastle.

The guidance must surely be coming from the head coach.? (For better or worse)

 

[hippo]

9 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Very much this, I think this is the only possible way to break into the top positions and stay there. FFP means you can't just buy it anymore, and gradually buying a couple here and a couple there for big money hasn't worked for a few clubs no matter how canny. To successfully get a young team together though with the right blend of a few experienced is exceptionally difficult to do and to be pretty blunt it takes very good coaching too, and so far Gerrard/Beale isn't really convincing me they are.

Mitigating circumstances maybe - but there's no track record of Stevie G giving youngsters a chance at Rangers. In fact quite the opposite.

[TRO]

22 hours ago, nepal_villan said:

Really good visualization on Reddit highlighting the flaw with Gerrard's system.

fine.

so can you explain the flaw in Dean Smiths system?...because many of our faults now, were still there.

Edited February 21, 2022 by TRO

[Tom13]

If we go and put in one of our classic pathetic, toothless away performances in against Brighton, things will get really interesting.

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

fine.

so can you explain the flaw in Dean Smiths system?...because many of our faults now, were still there.

The same flaw - space. Space between the players/the lines has always been the problem whether it be attacking or defending. During Smith's reign there was too much space between the players and it is the same now. The player movement both forwards and backwards needs to be more uniform. Smith managed it during that period where we managed to stay up but for some reason it disappeared, whether it was the players losing focus or the manager wanting to try something different I don't know.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

The same flaw - space. Space between the players/the lines has always been the problem whether it be attacking or defending. During Smith's reign there was too much space between the players and it is the same now. The player movement both forwards and backwards needs to be more uniform. Smith managed it during that period where we managed to stay up but for some reason it disappeared, whether it was the players losing focus or the manager wanting to try something different I don't know.

I agree.

but to fill space, you have to have football intelligence and a work ethic....and as you say move in unison.

[allani]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

Of course he isn't....

The talk of Europe always was pie in the sky at our stage.

It depends what is actually meant by "Its on the players"......many of them are still reportedly targets for better teams than ours.....but some of the things going amiss, is a result of poor play.

We have been inconsistent for some time, we have to go back to the start of 2020/21 season to see more than 2 wins on the bounce....something Newcastle has just done.....so this is not new.

We can all see whats wrong....how to fix it is not so clear.

I could see that Watford goal coming on Saturday.....something that frustrates me the most.....I wish, I couldn't see things like that.......I was not surprised by the Leeds come back either.....The Wolves one, did surprise and anger me.

I don't like this kind of football where we are vulnerable for most of the match....that is not entertaining for me, despite the odd worldie move.

The problem with the players is, the level they are at, they are good at somethings and not others, the collective problem is most of them are good at the same things and not so good at the same things.....so certain things that need to be done, are not.

I hope the club are all aware of this, I would be worried, if they're not.

I think sometimes you can move to a bigger team and still not be right for the team you were at.  Mings / Konsa are both decent CBs but I'm not sure that as a pairing they bring the best out of each other.  I would be surprised if any of our team actually end up going to a Top 6 / 8 team in the summer.  Luiz possibly abroad.  And maybe Arsenal are SO desperate for a striker, they will bid for Ollie.

[Sam-AVFC]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

fine.

so can you explain the flaw in Dean Smiths system?...because many of our faults now, were still there.

It's time to move on from Dean Smith.

Gerrard needs to be able to impress on his own merits.

Same way 'not worse than Steve Bruce' was never enough for Smith. 

[sparrow1988]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree.

but to fill space, you have to have football intelligence and a work ethic....and as you say move in unison.

The players are not all perfect but they can take instruction. We saw it for a period between June 2020 to about February 2021 that they are very capable of performing well in a system. You also need to have a manager to have the intelligence and will to recognise the limitations of the players, and also the players that he wants to bring in for his preferred system. For example, there is no doubting Coutinho's ability but there is a reason that Klopp was happy to let him go. He didn't suit his system, he didn't and still doesn't have the legs/lungs. A very similar system to the one that we are trying to employ. This is neither exclusively the players nor the manager's fault. They all need to adapt.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, allani said:

Exactly.  The issue(s) with the team have been there for a while and are not a quick fix.  At the risk of thinking that one issue will solve everything, I do believe that the reason we struggle at times going forwards and also in defence is down to the centre midfield three.  When they play well, we can play some exceptional stuff.  But they just don't do it consistently enough.

I think that regardless of how we try and play that will remain the issue as long as McGinn and Luiz are playing there together.  We were having EXACTLY the same issues this time last season that we are this season.  The manager has changed, the system has changed, the constant is that McGinn and Luiz very rarely work well together in terms of controlling the midfield.  We can sack as many managers as we want but failing to replace those two players will keep on putting us back in the same position.  Smith had 2 seasons to see that and do something about it.  He was (probably) unlucky that Sanson was out for so long but I am not sure that Sanson was the answer anyway.  Gerrard hasn't really had a chance to address that - I think it feels obvious that we tried to go after a couple of players in that position but it is incredibly hard to sign quality players in January (unless there is a specific set of circumstances playing in your favour or you are prepared to pay WELL over the odds).

We have to give him a chance to address this.  If we are still struggling after the summer then his future deserves to be questioned.  It is quite ironic though how some of the most vocal posters about not backing Gerrard heavily in the summer are those who insisted that Smith wasn't given enough time.

I am thinking that we will not go for the DCM that many on this board seem to favour (at the risk of over-simplifying it - a Nakamba who can pass the ball).  I think we'll instead aim to have a midfield who are comfortable on the ball - who are quick enough in terms of passing and quick feet to avoid the hard press and who act as the conductor of our orchestra.  I'm beginning to think that both Luiz and McGinn need to go in the summer because those positions are so critical to us making the next step.  JJ will have a bit more creative / progressive licence within the three.  Whilst I think Luiz is the better player of the two other incumbents I am beginning to think that maybe he's the one we need to move on and that McGinn stays but is here as a super sub (probably to replace / cover either JJ or Buendia).  If Luiz and / or McGinn start our first match of next season then serious questions need to be asked.

I largely agree, but have reservations on specifics.

I agree, McGinn & Luiz, don't work, its been tried and tested for too long and we come back to the same place.....However, I am not sure your alternatives are right.

In the case of Man U....depite all their trials and tribulations that have midfielders who can disrupt and play out.....McTominay, Fred, Pogba and Fendandes does get niggly too....take away the personalities, they all do both jobs, defend and attack.

Despite, me being a bold advocate of a CDM....I am more of an advocate of players being able to stop the opposition, now if that means attacking players, who have a good nose for defending, so be it....as the aforementioned players are capable of.

Personally, I don;t see Ndidi or Bissouma as particualr duffers when is comes to progressing the ball.....so I don't see the massive void between being an attacking or defensive player, many of the better ones can do both.....albeit the lesser ones, tend to struggle with both.

I remember way back Gareth Barry, Sid Cowans, Alex Cropley and Des Bremner being able to do both.....this mythical view about a good CDM being like vinnie jones or Joey Barton, baffles me.

And quite frankly such is the form drop by us collectively, I'm not sure a Marvellous Nakamba, would fix us.....its been left to fester and drifted too far, for too long.

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, allani said:

I think sometimes you can move to a bigger team and still not be right for the team you were at.  Mings / Konsa are both decent CBs but I'm not sure that as a pairing they bring the best out of each other.  I would be surprised if any of our team actually end up going to a Top 6 / 8 team in the summer.  Luiz possibly abroad.  And maybe Arsenal are SO desperate for a striker, they will bid for Ollie.

equally if you are a good player, but tend to be passive.....as an e.g if you go to a club who have the types of players who can win the ball with regularity,...it may well work out.

Its about balancing attributes within a squad.....I believe we have an issue here.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

The players are not all perfect but they can take instruction. We saw it for a period between June 2020 to about February 2021 that they are very capable of performing well in a system. You also need to have a manager to have the intelligence and will to recognise the limitations of the players, and also the players that he wants to bring in for his preferred system. For example, there is no doubting Coutinho's ability but there is a reason that Klopp was happy to let him go. He didn't suit his system, he didn't and still doesn't have the legs/lungs. A very similar system to the one that we are trying to employ. This is neither exclusively the players nor the manager's fault. They all need to adapt.

I accept that, except I don't remember Liverpool being pleased to see Coutinho go, despite the huge fee....it was his choice.

I accept the lungs/ legs comment.

However Liverpool have moved on from Suarez and Coutinho, with Mane & Salah.

When did we ever replace Gareth Barry?....................adequately.

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

It's time to move on from Dean Smith.

Gerrard needs to be able to impress on his own merits.

Same way 'not worse than Steve Bruce' was never enough for Smith. 

Thanks for answering the question Sam.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, samjp26 said:

Way too early to be calling for his head, however an actual defensive midfielder is clearly key to how he wants us to play. I think if we are to say "this is how we want to play", we need to target the correct players to fit the roles and actually succeed in bringing these targets into the club. Bissouma was evidently our number 1 target, Bentancur another top target, the latter went to Tottenham and the former it seems we wouldn't pay what they asked for. I completely understand not wanting to get shafted by clubs in regards to fees and such, but if we only have a select amount of targets we need to pay to bring them in, otherwise we are left in the situation we are in now which is asking players to fulfil roles that they simply can not. 

I have no doubt that Stevie G and his coaching staff are forward thinking with what they want to do, how they want to play etc. but as things stand we don't have the players to meet the demands and if the club aren't prepared to pay above and beyond for the players required, we should be looking at going back to the drawing board and changing the style of play.

Eureka!!!!

[hippo]

53 minutes ago, allani said:

I think sometimes you can move to a bigger team and still not be right for the team you were at.  Mings / Konsa are both decent CBs but I'm not sure that as a pairing they bring the best out of each other.  I would be surprised if any of our team actually end up going to a Top 6 / 8 team in the summer.  Luiz possibly abroad.  And maybe Arsenal are SO desperate for a striker, they will bid for Ollie.

We are not talking about whether or not current squad have top 6 - 8 calibre 

We are talking if there enough quality there to be Watford at home.

[romavillan]

2 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

Yes but-

1- As a fan base we have and will never will have the patience for this. We tried to do this under Lambert in a bargain basement  sort of way and a lot of the young players just lost all confidence after about a year after playing for us.

2-When said players finally come good, they will then get sold to one of the top 6 sides and we would have to start again.

We aren't trying it on the cheap, we have a load of quality youngsters coming through that have played together for a while. It's a project that has been ongoing for a few years now. I've certainly got the patience for it, as long as we see some progress, a plan, a philosophy, a way of playing then I don't mind watching that for a few years if that's what it takes for the group to mature together and challenge. What I wouldn't like to see is a load of older last/second to last contract type players come in on massive wages again.

[sparrow1988]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept that, except I don't remember Liverpool being pleased to see Coutinho go, despite the huge fee....it was his choice.

I accept the lungs/ legs comment.

However Liverpool have moved on from Suarez and Coutinho, with Mane & Salah.

When did we ever replace Gareth Barry?....................adequately.

I think the official line was “oh no Coutinho is gone” but behind the scenes it was “grand, now we can sign Van Dijk”. It was the same window I believe. He was still there when Mane and Salah were. Selling him and buying Van Dijk is what catapulted them to winning the two big trophies. Anyway we’re a while away from that yet

And no we haven’t replaced Barry. We embarked on a period of asset stripping, which culminated in the club almost ceasing to exist and we’re really only a position to add a player of Barry’s calibre in that position now (and even that’s arguable). 

[allani]

35 minutes ago, TRO said:

I largely agree, but have reservations on specifics.

I agree, McGinn & Luiz, don't work, its been tried and tested for too long and we come back to the same place.....However, I am not sure your alternatives are right.

In the case of Man U....depite all their trials and tribulations that have midfielders who can disrupt and play out.....McTominay, Fred, Pogba and Fendandes does get niggly too....take away the personalities, they all do both jobs, defend and attack.

Despite, me being a bold advocate of a CDM....I am more of an advocate of players being able to stop the opposition, now if that means attacking players, who have a good nose for defending, so be it....as the aforementioned players are capable of.

Personally, I don;t see Ndidi or Bissouma as particualr duffers when is comes to progressing the ball.....so I don't see the massive void between being an attacking or defensive player, many of the better ones can do both.....albeit the lesser ones, tend to struggle with both.

I remember way back Gareth Barry, Sid Cowans, Alex Cropley and Des Bremner being able to do both.....this mythical view about a good CDM being like vinnie jones or Joey Barton, baffles me.

And quite frankly such is the form drop by us collectively, I'm not sure a Marvellous Nakamba, would fix us.....its been left to fester and drifted too far, for too long.

I think we are arguing the same thing.  For me neither Bissouma nor Gareth Barry are CDMs in the way that I think others have described them.  I could see the "target" trio being something along the lines of a Barry, Bissouma, JJ type midfield.  Barry is great at reading the game, was good at retaining possession and always seemed to have time on the ball to pick out the best option - be that the simple pass to the guy next to him or a more progressive ball forwards, Bissouma (from what I have seen) seems like more of a driver - get the ball and take it forwards before passing on to someone else.  And then JJ as the slightly more "attacking" member looking to burst forward and beyond the two supporting attackers.  So if you look at the three midfield qualities being "ball winning", "ball retention" and "ball progression" - I don't see us trying for a midfielder who is good at just the first of those.  I think we will be looking to sign two players whose main skills are in ball retention (with JJ being more about ball progression).  I think we are OK at winning the ball back (although our midfield are guilty of letting the opposition past them and not tracking back well enough).  Our big issue is that we aren't good enough at retaining the ball when we get it back when we are under pressure.  Too often we lose the ball in midfield or have Mings / McGinn (but not exclusively them) try a ridiculous Hollywood pass or the aimless punt down the channel for Ollie to chase.  That isn't to say that they shouldn't / won't be good tacklers.  Far from it.  But when I think of Gareth Barry I remember him on the ball and just looking like he had so much time that he could sit down, have a cuppa, read the back page of the paper and then make the pass - more so than him making last minute tackles.

[lexicon]

12 minutes ago, hippo said:

We are not talking about whether or not current squad have top 6 - 8 calibre 

We are talking if there enough quality there to be Watford at home.

I honestly do think it's a top 8 squad. We did more with less last season.

[Dale]

2 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I honestly do think it's a top 8 squad. We did more with less last season.

We finished 11th but with a points haul that'd have had us in the top ten comfortably for most of the last decade.