Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

8 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

And conversely you put Van Dijk in our team and he would struggle. Their players higher up the pitch make it so much easier for their defenders. 

its synergy....thats what blend does.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, GingerCollins29 said:

We're losing games because we're gifting teams chance after chance because the full backs are out of position and two midfielders have to drop back, leaving gaping holes everywhere.

Change the system ffs.

Not saying you are wrong....but ;

a) how do other teams do it?....are their full backs and midfielders that much better, to be able to do it?.....is Gerrard asking the players to do what, they can't do?

b) We was gifting chance after chance under Dean, when full backs were staying back?....but the wingers were doing fanny adams, just losing the ball.

is it all much of a muchness.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

• We have good players in our squad, but too many have the same attributes.
• That results in no blend......just a collection of talented individuals, who are struggling to compliment each other.

We don't play as a team....it needs to be galvanised.

Edited February 22, 2022 by TRO

[GingerCollins29]

44 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Might also be our attackers.  We had 20 shots vs. Watford, only 1 on target. Only 2 on target vs. Newcastle.

Fair point and i think both are valid

[TRO]

Why do we have to play 2 wingers or 2 wing backs?

why can't we play 1 in an asymmetrical system, with 1 staying back.....or just 1 winger, with the option of switching flanks.

and deploy an extra midfielder.

Edited February 22, 2022 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

We got done on the counter against Watford and were just shit against Newcastle. Next game is against a team that will expect to beat us. Might be a chance to keep it tight and take our chances on the break.

[Zatman]

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

We got done on the counter against Watford and were just shit against Newcastle. Next game is against a team that will expect to beat us. Might be a chance to keep it tight and take our chances on the break.

But we were also shit against Watford. They created all the major chances because of us

Vs Brighton we need to go back to basics. Our system might get away with it since Brighton are allergic to shooting

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, Zatman said:

But we were also shit against Watford. They created all the major chances because of us

Vs Brighton we need to go back to basics. Our system might get away with it since Brighton are allergic to shooting

Yeh we were shit but they parked this bus and hit us on the break. Dynamic of the game will be different away from home.

[TRO]

16 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We got done on the counter against Watford and were just shit against Newcastle. Next game is against a team that will expect to beat us. Might be a chance to keep it tight and take our chances on the break.

The final execution of their goal....came from Digne, just caught in the headlights.....Sarr had so much time., equally so much time for Digne to get a challenge in, to disrupt, his intention to cross.

We get punished, so many times in games, from our players standing off.

[Vive_La_Villa]

51 minutes ago, TRO said:

The final execution of their goal....came from Digne, just caught in the headlights.....Sarr had so much time., equally so much time for Digne to get a challenge in, to disrupt, his intention to cross.

We get punished, so many times in games, from our players standing off.

Yeh it was poor defending but did feel like it was coming.

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Yeh it was poor defending but did feel like it was coming.

yes it did....I said at half time to a local fan, after him asking me ,how I thought it would end I said "1-0", he said "to us"....I said "No"...he Baulked.

I am an average Joe,  no expert, just paying my dues and following the club through thick and thin......but if I can see clear, issues.........surely they can.

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, VillanousOne said:

True. 

I just hope now Bailey is back he tries to add some width to the attack and we finally drop Luiz or McGinn.

I dread the midfield of Ramsey and McGinn............ No way McGinn ever gets dropped

[Keyblade]

4 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

People keep banging on about this DM but it's not the problem right now. In our last 3 we are averaging 2 shots on target with an xG total under 3. We aren't nearly creating enough. No where close. 

As a know nothing fan of the game I think our lack creativity has a lot to do with Steven asking two defenders to be the main fulcrum of our attack but what do I know. 

It's not like they are TAA and Robertson or Cancelo. It's Lucas Digne who is a cross/key pass expert, and Matty Cash, who as much as I love him...isn't very good at attacking? It's so bizarre. 

I don't know, to a know-nothing fan like myself, it seems more intuitive that a fullback would be more dangerous with an accompanying winger as opposed to solo? Matt Targett for example was so great last season because he could overlap Jack Grealish who drew all the attention towards him. Some of the best fullbacks this league has seen had accompanying partners in crime. Leighton Baines + Steven Pienaar, Neville + Beckham, Evra + Ronaldo etc. You can still have the fullbacks be integral to the playstyle, but as the main attacking threat? Again, unless they're world beaters, I just don't see how that works in this league. Just my humble opinion. I hope I'm wrong.

[TRO]

12 hours ago, lexicon said:

Digne is his player, though, and was bought to fit into his system. 

Re: your second point, we know full well that they are capable of better than this because we've seen them perform well many times. We were told that the 'high standards of a born winner' would help them kick on and be better, but we've only seen the opposite so far, while Gerrard slumps into his chair looking devoid of ideas. 

Whichever way you want to look at it, what we've seen is not nearly good enough. This team is capable of a hell of a lot more and Gerrard looks lost right now. I'm a fan of actions rather than the words and what we've seen so far is basically someone in way over their head. 

On the subject of acceptable performances.....how can I disagree.

On the issue of Digne, I wasn't alluding to who brought him in....I was merely saying, he was standing off, when he could have disrupted the cross.

but I think you are jumping to conclusions too.....being slumped in his chair, doesn't equate to him being devoid of idea's.....it could mean many things, one of which could be , they are not carrying out instructions.

Look, I am as surprised as the next man, because I strongly believe a team mirrors the manager......and this team sure as hell, don't mirror SG.

But you know my main feelings of the squad being imbalanced....However, I also think full backs so high up is daft in the light of our squad

[TRO]

12 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It's down to the finest of margins.

So that's why elements which seem minor on the surface, and are discredited by people, are actually much bigger than they think.

This is also where player effort comes in.

Remember in the past, how even when Ollie wasn't scoring, most people were staunchly in defense of him for his work rate, his hold up play, bringing other people into the game, chasing lost causes leading to chance and goal creation etc? That Ollie is gone.

I'd argue that now, Buendia is probably the hardest working player.

Now, so many times i've seen a winnable 50 | 50 turn into an opposition chance or ball win, simply due to one of our players going in half arsed, not tracking back, or chasing etc.

Most times, when the effort is there, even if everything isn't coming off, and games are scrappy, you can pull off a result, with a moment of quality from our forwards, but recently, that effort has been severely lacking.

To touch on your earlier point re " subs " , in my view, this is where Gerrards " fine margins "  and timing count.

While as you say, some of the players on the bench might be " the same type " of player, they might come in, and put in more effort for 50 | 50, intensity etc and unbalance opposition, plus rile up our own.

Add to all the above, it's why an  " average " player like Nakamba or his ilk, make such a difference to this system, it helps pick up slack where others are falling, and allow the rest of the team to do the " enjoyable part ".

 

just one off the cuff comment on intensity as an example.....I don't see any of our players run around like Conor Gallagher, thats workrate....He is like a bumble bee compared with our slugs.

[Demitri_C]

11 hours ago, Zatman said:

Why does he continue to play him if he is poor? Sanson, Chuk sitting on there arse waiting to get a chance 

As for a DM he had an entire window if he wanted one 

Who does he play then?? The only options are chuk and sanson

[sparrow1988]

Having watched a bit of Liverpool last night, I think that we can put the theory to bed that Gerrard is trying to get us to play like Liverpool or at least we are way off of it. We both play a kind of base shape of 4-3-3 but that is where the similarities end. Their two wider forwards/10's start way wider than Buendia and Coutinho and then come inside but Salah doesn't come inside as often - more on this later.

On their left Robertson is used in much the same way as Digne but their left sided CM (Jones last night) sits. Fabinho plays in much a similar role to Luiz taking up the same positions. However, Fabinho is always in a 3 in the midfield. When the opposition break on us Ramsey is invariably ahead of the ball as he wants to be invloved further up and this results in a lot of space behind. Liverpool's midfield 3 is almost always behind the ball, at the very least the wider of the 3 CM's on the side where the ball is almost always behind the ball. This shoves the opposition down the wing with their counter-attacks and affords time for the players upfield to get back. We played like this at the start under SG where Ramsey was in one of the 10 positions.

Salah pulls wide a lot, spending a lot of time on the right touchline during build-up, leaving space inside for TAA who sometimes takes up positions like a 10 creating a 5 - 3 shaped attack like this (Last night);

Robertson - Diaz - Mane - TAA - Salah

           Jones - Fabinho - Thiago

Salah will then look for runs in behind with Alexander-Arnold picking the passes to find him.

 

On to Villa, Ramsey pushes on and tries to make things happen with Coutinho and Digne and we end up going forward in a sort 6 - 2 shape like below (from Saturday);

Digne - Ramsey - Coutinho - Ings - Buendia - Cash

                               Doug - McGinn

This leaves us way too open,  leaving Luiz and McGinn to cover the full width of the pitch on their own, and I'm not saying I want Cash taking up these positions like Alexander-Arnold does. That wouldn't end well at all. However, I think a similar shape could be achieved by Ramsey and McGinn swapping sides and Cash tucking in to midfield when we go forward. This would give us that 5 - 3 shape, allow Ramsey to push on, enabling him to make use of his attacking talents, removes Cash's attacking responsibility and would provide more cover in the midfield, meaning Luiz and McGinn aren't stretched as much as they are now. We then end up looking like this going forward;

Digne - Coutinho - Ings - Ramsey - Buendia

             McGinn - Doug - Cash

It is a lot more secure than what we have been seeing the last few games, while at the same time not really taking away from the attack. It gets our most effective attacking players moving forward. I would even be tempted to tell Ramsey to drift out wide on the right and look for the runs in behind similar to Salah with Buendia tucked in more picking him out with through balls. Gerrard needs to adapt to what he has at his disposal but pressing on with the 6-2 shape in attack is going to leave use very vulnerable on the break while closing dwon space further forwards by flooding the area with more players who in turn attract more of the opposition players to mark our players.

Easy this football lark.

[TRO]

The argument about a CDM has been convoluted, to suit an agenda of denial.

Some players in a team have to have a priority to stop the opposition.....(others have a priority to attack)

You can call them whatever, you want.....but the task has to be done.

We are playing players in a role to do that, who are better suited to attack, and we wonder why, we have problems in stopping the opposition from scoring against us.

A "System" will not inject attributes in to a team......as an example if there is no aggression or intensity, in the 11 players make-up.....a System will not compensate for it.

I do appreciate the value of a system, but I think we are partly barking up the wrong tree......a combination of things is wrong.

I believe, we are tinkering with systems to try and make up for player shortfalls and its not working....in fact we have made it worse.

Edited February 24, 2022 by TRO

[A'Villan]

@TRO I'm not saying the system alone injected, as you say, certain attributes into players. However it certainly encourages it. Look at the development of Hourihane for example, from his showings under Bruce's way of playing (the less said the better), to the way he learned to be a role player in a possession based, short passing system instilled by Smith. His development and integration into that system under Smith even saw him hold his own in a starting role in the PL.

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

Having watched a bit of Liverpool last night, I think that we can put the theory to bed that Gerrard is trying to get us to play like Liverpool or at least we are way off of it. We both play a kind of base shape of 4-3-3 but that is where the similarities end. Their two wider forwards/10's start way wider than Buendia and Coutinho and then come inside but Salah doesn't come inside as often - more on this later.

On their left Robertson is used in much the same way as Digne but their left sided CM (Jones last night) sits. Fabinho plays in much a similar role to Luiz taking up the same positions. However, Fabinho is always in a 3 in the midfield. When the opposition break on us Ramsey is invariably ahead of the ball as he wants to be invloved further up and this results in a lot of space behind. Liverpool's midfield 3 is almost always behind the ball, at the very least the wider of the 3 CM's on the side where the ball is almost always behind the ball. This shoves the opposition down the wing with their counter-attacks and affords time for the players upfield to get back. We played like this at the start under SG where Ramsey was in one of the 10 positions.

Salah pulls wide a lot, spending a lot of time on the right touchline during build-up, leaving space inside for TAA who sometimes takes up positions like a 10 creating a 5 - 3 shaped attack like this (Last night);

Robertson - Diaz - Mane - TAA - Salah

           Jones - Fabinho - Thiago

Salah will then look for runs in behind with Alexander-Arnold picking the passes to find him.

 

On to Villa, Ramsey pushes on and tries to make things happen with Coutinho and Digne and we end up going forward in a sort 6 - 2 shape like below (from Saturday);

Digne - Ramsey - Coutinho - Ings - Buendia - Cash

                               Doug - McGinn

This leaves us way too open,  leaving Luiz and McGinn to cover the full width of the pitch on their own, and I'm not saying I want Cash taking up these positions like Alexander-Arnold does. That wouldn't end well at all. However, I think a similar shape could be achieved by Ramsey and McGinn swapping sides and Cash tucking in to midfield when we go forward. This would give us that 5 - 3 shape, allow Ramsey to push on, enabling him to make use of his attacking talents, removes Cash's attacking responsibility and would provide more cover in the midfield, meaning Luiz and McGinn aren't stretched as much as they are now. We then end up looking like this going forward;

Digne - Coutinho - Ings - Ramsey - Buendia

             McGinn - Doug - Cash

It is a lot more secure than what we have been seeing the last few games, while at the same time not really taking away from the attack. It gets our most effective attacking players moving forward. I would even be tempted to tell Ramsey to drift out wide on the right and look for the runs in behind similar to Salah with Buendia tucked in more picking him out with through balls. Gerrard needs to adapt to what he has at his disposal but pressing on with the 6-2 shape in attack is going to leave use very vulnerable on the break while closing dwon space further forwards by flooding the area with more players who in turn attract more of the opposition players to mark our players.

Easy this football lark.

Firstly, I see a clear distinction, between Fabinho and Luiz....Fabinho's stature lends itself to a more physically and assertive player, in the first place.

secondly,  a football game is dynamic,not static, and it morphs in to different shapes as the game progresses and regresses......so another fan, could have a different view on what he or she is looking at.

Its a game, where opinions vary......I like to keep it simple, the 11 better players usually win the most games.