Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

1 minute ago, A'Villan said:

@TRO I'm not saying the system alone injected, as you say, certain attributes into players. However it certainly encourages it. Look at the development of Hourihane for example, from his showings under Bruce's way of playing (the less said the better), to the way he learned to be a role player in a possession based, short passing system instilled by Smith. His development and integration into that system under Smith even saw him hold his own in a starting role in the PL.

Yes, but the secret is balance.

as an example..........We all know we can play 7 players in defence and suddenly a defender, who was deemed no to so good, looks good and vice versa.

In theory, systems should be designed to maximise the attributes in the squad....thats why one system doesn't fit all.

The problem is there comes a time, when there is an acute lack of certain attributes, that creates a collective problem and all the tinkering with systems, won't negate it......I think thats where we are at.

We have played around with systems to our hearts content, and still we have the underlying issue of........" Easy to play against"

I also think the fan base has changed over the years.....I am not sure the younger element, would have accepted the Ron Saunders Mantra, as much as we older fans do....that is of course a generalisation.

I get the impression a few magical moments is an easy trade off for a more functional controlled game...in sections of the fan base.

We are not a football version on the Harlem Globe trotters and shouldn't try to be.......its prudent to be miserly in defence, but we don't seemed to be geared for it, on occasions only the 2 centre backs are deployed there.

[TRO]

We are all clamouring for new players, we are scrutinising the academy kids out on loan......we are all pursuing individual prowess, with a desperation to assume improvement.

but we need a team.

Its the blend which is eluding us and an ability to get 11 players galvanised to defend and attack when the necessity, presents itself.

We are becoming obsessed with individuals, when the essence is playing together.

I think to a large extent this manifested itself from Jacks days.....it has to change and it still hasn't.

This team of ours was built around Jack...and he is not here.......we have to change radically, to get back to a fully functioning 11 player team......all giving a full account of themselves.

[A'Villan]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yes, but the secret is balance.

as an example..........We all know we can play 7 players in defence and suddenly a defender, who was deemed no to so good, looks good and vice versa.

In theory, systems should be designed to maximise the attributes in the squad....thats why one system doesn't fit all.

The problem is there comes a time, when there is an acute lack of certain attributes, that creates a collective problem and all the tinkering with systems, won't negate it......I think thats where we are at.

We have played around with systems to our hearts content, and still we have the underlying issue of........" Easy to play against"

I also think the fan base has changed over the years.....I am not sure the younger element, would have accepted the Ron Saunders Mantra, as much as we older fans do....that is of course a generalisation.

I get the impression a few magical moments is an easy trade off for a more functional controlled game...in sections of the fan base.

We are not a football version on the Harlem Globe trotters and shouldn't try to be.......its prudent to be miserly in defence, but we don't seemed to be geared for it, on occasions only the 2 centre backs are deployed there.

I agree with that in essence for the most part. All sides have assets and liabilities, some more pronounced than others. Remember we beat Liverpool 7-2 not long after they finished the season prior as champions with 99 points. I think the underlying issue among our team has been such major overhauls in the way we go about it that familiarity and cohesion are always in the infant stages of development. I'd say that is an issue above an acute lacking in any aspect of the game from our players.

Also, in regards the Harlem Globe Trotters, intuition tells me you mean to suggest setting up in a highly offense driven, technically skilled and flair driven type of manner. The Globe Trotters are a circus act. They would get trounced against any professional outfit in a standard game. We should definitely not aspire to be like them even if we had Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Ronaldo the fenomeno making up our front three. The Globe Trotters could not play defence to save themselves, and again its a guess but that is your point I take.

I do however believe with the assets we do possess, we need to make use of them, while nullifying our liabilities. Right now, our liability is in the system we deploy not creating much threat going forward, despite the assets we have in abundance to do just that.

Perhaps it comes gold, I'm not saying anything either way. Gerrard played a number of ways at Rangers. And what we are trying might just find its feet with a few tweaks, or better understanding among personnel. 

Forgive me it's late and I've got to check out for now.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I agree with that in essence for the most part. All sides have assets and liabilities, some more pronounced than others. Remember we beat Liverpool 7-2 not long after they finished the season prior as champions with 99 points. I think the underlying issue among our team has been such major overhauls in the way we go about it that familiarity and cohesion are always in the infant stages of development. I'd say that is an issue above an acute lacking in any aspect of the game from our players.

Also, in regards the Harlem Globe Trotters, intuition tells me you mean to suggest setting up in a highly offense driven, technically skilled and flair driven type of manner. The Globe Trotters are a circus act. They would get trounced against any professional outfit in a standard game. We should definitely not aspire to be like them even if we had Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Ronaldo the fenomeno making up our front three. The Globe Trotters could not play defence to save themselves, and again its a guess but that is your point I take.

I do however believe with the assets we do possess, we need to make use of them, while nullifying our liabilities. Right now, our liability is in the system we deploy not creating much threat going forward, despite the assets we have in abundance to do just that.

Perhaps it comes gold, I'm not saying anything either way. Gerrard played a number of ways at Rangers. And what we are trying might just find its feet with a few tweaks, or better understanding among personnel. 

Forgive me it's late and I've got to check out for now.

Yes, it was a kinda light hearted way of putting it.....but you are right, in deciphering my thinking.

such is our gay abandon, for defending our goal, a circus act, is not too far away.....Watfords goal was appalling defending.

I think in terms of recruitment, we have sought to bring in more offensive players than defensive players, in recent windows, to our detriment, in my view......and some of us are looking at systems to bail us out.

I don't think it can, to a large extent, sure it could be better than what it is.....but I don't think the system alone, is the only problem.

 

[sparrow1988]

38 minutes ago, TRO said:

Firstly, I see a clear distinction, between Fabinho and Luiz....Fabinho's stature lends itself to a more physically and assertive player, in the first place.

secondly,  a football game is dynamic,not static, and it morphs in to different shapes as the game progresses and regresses......so another fan, could have a different view on what he or she is looking at.

Its a game, where opinions vary......I like to keep it simple, the 11 better players usually win the most games.

Yes but it's a lot easier to be assertive when you have a much smaller area of the ptich to control. Of course the team with the better players usually win most games but you stick Fabinho into the system that we played on Saturday and he will struggle with all the space that he has to cover. He will do most things better than Luiz and McGinn that's why he plays for Liverpool and we have the other two. He's simply a better player. We might have gotten a 0-0 draw instead of a loss.

However there is also a reason that Man United got hammered by 5-0 (I think) Liverpool earlier in the season. Two evenly matched teams quality wise. One team went in to the game under Klopp and enacted his system and plan. The other went in to the game carrying out Ole's "We're Man United, most famous club in the world, pace, youth system, history, passion" philosophy (to be kind) and their fans were out the gate after 60 minutes. They also regularly strruggle against teams that they shouldn't. Liverpool on the other hand regularly dispatch teams with ease.

I'm not saying football is just systems. That's Chess. It's a combination of both players and systems and IMO with a better system we would have gotten more out of the games the last few weeks than we did.

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

We are all clamouring for new players, we are scrutinising the academy kids out on loan......we are all pursuing individual prowess, with a desperation to assume improvement.

but we need a team.

Its the blend which is eluding us and an ability to get 11 players galvanised to defend and attack when the necessity, presents itself.

We are becoming obsessed with individuals, when the essence is playing together.

I think to a large extent this manifested itself from Jacks days.....it has to change and it still hasn't.

This team of ours was built around Jack...and he is not here.......we have to change radically, to get back to a fully functioning 11 player team......all giving a full account of themselves.

Smith gave us that. Everyone had a role. Everyone got to know their role.

I'm not saying it won't happen under Gerrard, it might just.

Opinions on managers aside. Bang on, @TRO. A superstar team over and above a team of superstars.

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, sparrow1988 said:

Yes but it's a lot easier to be assertive when you have a much smaller area of the ptich to control. Of course the team with the better players usually win most games but you stick Fabinho into the system that we played on Saturday and he will struggle with all the space that he has to cover. He will do most things better than Luiz and McGinn that's why he plays for Liverpool and we have the other two. He's simply a better player. We might have gotten a 0-0 draw instead of a loss.

However there is also a reason that Man United got hammered by 5-0 (I think) Liverpool earlier in the season. Two evenly matched teams quality wise. One team went in to the game under Klopp and enacted his system and plan. The other went in to the game carrying out Ole's "We're Man United, most famous club in the world, pace, youth system, history, passion" philosophy (to be kind) and their fans were out the gate after 60 minutes. They also regularly strruggle against teams that they shouldn't. Liverpool on the other hand regularly dispatch teams with ease.

I'm not saying football is just systems. That's Chess. It's a combination of both players and systems and IMO with a better system we would have gotten more out of the games the last few weeks than we did.

Excellent post.

 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

Yes but it's a lot easier to be assertive when you have a much smaller area of the ptich to control. Of course the team with the better players usually win most games but you stick Fabinho into the system that we played on Saturday and he will struggle with all the space that he has to cover. He will do most things better than Luiz and McGinn that's why he plays for Liverpool and we have the other two. He's simply a better player. We might have gotten a 0-0 draw instead of a loss.

However there is also a reason that Man United got hammered by 5-0 (I think) Liverpool earlier in the season. Two evenly matched teams quality wise. One team went in to the game under Klopp and enacted his system and plan. The other went in to the game carrying out Ole's "We're Man United, most famous club in the world, pace, youth system, history, passion" philosophy (to be kind) and their fans were out the gate after 60 minutes. They also regularly strruggle against teams that they shouldn't. Liverpool on the other hand regularly dispatch teams with ease.

I'm not saying football is just systems. That's Chess. It's a combination of both players and systems and IMO with a better system we would have gotten more out of the games the last few weeks than we did.

Can't argue with that, emboldened bit....or part of the midfield deployed as full backs.

but I think Man U have some great players, Liverpool are just more rounded and play as a team as opposed to a bunch of individuals.

equally, I too am not dismissing systems as irrelevant, as you say its both.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

I think you are getting warmer, to part of the problem....we are not very mobile, to say the least....off the ball, we are lucky if we semi press.

We also seem to pass the ball at a snails pace alot of the time.

This has been something which has annoyed me even since Deano has been here. I don't get it, as well as our terrible passing at times.

Sometimes I watch other teams play and it's almost like I'm watching a match in double speed, compared to when I watch us at times.

[MattVillaPortsmouth]

33 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

We also seem to pass the ball at a snails pace alot of the time.

This has been something which has annoyed me even since Deano has been here. I don't get it, as well as our terrible passing at times.

Sometimes I watch other teams play and it's almost like I'm watching a match in double speed, compared to when I watch us at times.

This - this kills me, we do it 80% of the time slow slow slow, turn back slow slow slow.  Get you can’t play at 90mph constantly, but move that air filled leather thing a bit quicker!! Also, we never seem to play ahead of a player from back, always just a bit behind them

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

49 minutes ago, MattVillaPortsmouth said:

This - this kills me, we do it 80% of the time slow slow slow, turn back slow slow slow.  Get you can’t play at 90mph constantly, but move that air filled leather thing a bit quicker!! Also, we never seem to play ahead of a player from back, always just a bit behind them

And every now and then, we raise the intensity, win 50/50's, chase lost causes, create chances, force opposition into mistakes ( And you're thinking, here we go... see.... raise the intensity and you get results ".

We then carry on this spell for a total of 5 - 20 minutes, proceed to fluff all our chances with a combo of bad decision making and poor finishing, then revert to type and inevitably capitulate.

Edited February 26, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

We also seem to pass the ball at a snails pace alot of the time.

This has been something which has annoyed me even since Deano has been here. I don't get it, as well as our terrible passing at times.

Sometimes I watch other teams play and it's almost like I'm watching a match in double speed, compared to when I watch us at times.

sadly ditto.

[VillaChris]

7 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

But are they....I have read this many times....two managers now and still the same mistakes.

Yes...both Smith and Gerrard have made mistakes but its with the same players.

I think we need to realise that just because we have spent money doesn't mean these players are actually that good.

Yes we will have good spells in games...even poor teams do but I'm sorry to say....some of these players are not as good as we think they are

What metric though?

I certainly agree most of them are not consistant enough to seriously challenge for top 6 anytime soon.

I wanted to finish 8th a few weeks back. Are we saying that's impossible now given a team that finishes 8th usually has a long winless run in the season? Even 10th would be acceptable in my book given it's been a very disrupted season for many reasons.7

Don't think anything below 12th is acceptable at all imo as certainly teams with poorer squads will be finishing above us then.

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

What metric though?

I certainly agree most of them are not consistant enough to seriously challenge for top 6 anytime soon.

I wanted to finish 8th a few weeks back. Are we saying that's impossible now given a team that finishes 8th usually has a long winless run in the season? Even 10th would be acceptable in my book given it's been a very disrupted season for many reasons.7

Don't think anything below 12th is acceptable at all imo as certainly teams with poorer squads will be finishing above us then.

I would snap your hand off for 11th again.

[Dale]

Just now, TRO said:

I would snap your hand off for 11th again.

No chance will we match last seasons points tally even if we finish 11th!

[TRO]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

And every now and then, we raise the intensity, win 50/50's, chase lost causes, create chances, force opposition into mistakes ( And you're thinking, here we go... see.... raise the intensity and you get results ".

We then carry on this spell for a total of 5 - 20 minutes, proceed to fluff all our chances with a combo of bad decision making and poor finishing, then revert to type and inevitably capitulate.

Shaun.....you write a fair bit on here.....and by and large, your posts on the team always make sense and IMO.....your opinions are worthy of note.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Dale said:

Incredible that we let three goals against Leeds. Set up to allow them to play their game and exploit the wings. Utterly naive. 

We haven't got the "Easy to play against tag" for nothing.

[Dale]

Just now, TRO said:

We haven't got the "Easy to play against tag" for nothing.

At times it's mentality. But at the moment, due to sending both full backs forward at the same time it's down to the spaces this creates. 

Van Gaal is right with regards to the steering wheel analogy, when ones up. One should drop! 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Dale said:

Incredible that we let three goals against Leeds. Set up to allow them to play their game and exploit the wings. Utterly naive. 

and Wolves, with 10 minutes to go.

as you say, and the same issues on 3 occasions at home too......what do we really learn?

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, Dale said:

At times it's mentality. But at the moment, due to sending both full backs forward at the same time it's down to the spaces this creates. 

Van Gaal is right with regards to the steering wheel analogy, when ones up. One should drop! 

I agree.

I presume it is a plan to hit them harder and before, they hit us......The problem is if it doesn't work or the players don't make it work...The plan fails and the oppostion, seize the intiative and as you allude to, we are caught exposed.

EG its like snooker, do you go for the pots or play safe.....If you go for the former, you are likely to leave your opponent up.....its very similar.

All the top teams have control and players who understand and can execute control.....they know when to attack and when to fall back.....and they make it their business to seize control of the ball.

At present, the plan to play our full backs as wing backs, with the midfield balance is folly imo.....but hey ho!......I have been watching villa for more than 15 games....He has to learn.

I thought Targett was mediocre at defending, but to sign one arguably worse, seems a classic case of not knowing the squad well enough....and pursuing his long term plan.

I think SG has made mistakes, but some of those mistakes were inevitable, in trying to fix long term issues.

I wouldn't want to send out an 11 out from this squad, ....because in many ways, there is no feasible options......and feasible, being the operative word.