Team shape, tactics and personnel

[duke313]

5 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I don't know how easy it is to tweak the system. If we ask the full backs to not get forward as much then that means other players need to occupy the wide channels. So the 10s moving wider is back to the regular 4 3 3. If it's the midfielders then we're leaving more space in centrally. Also if the full backs aren't getting forward as much then the midfielders need to defend for the full backs less. 

I think we just need to persevere with the system. We could change personnel though, maybe Chambers in alongside McGinn and Luiz. Give Ramsey a break maybe. Potentially we could also alter the midfield 3 so they are not a flat three, we could have Chambers and Luiz flanking JJ/McGinn centrally who is tasked with getting forward more rather than the two wider midfielders required to decide when to go forward and when to cover for fullbacks.

I think there could be tweaks to make. Our problem is we are not scoring though. The fact we concede on the counter a lot won't be fixed until Nakamba is back really. 

I wouldn't mind if we conceded a few goals on the counter if we were scoring 3 or 4 a game.  

[CVByrne]

I think there's very little we can do to fix things tactically. We are being blocked in central areas and don't seem to have the quick pass and movement skills to break it down. So we are being forced to the wide areas where we have Digne who can cross well and we've Cash who can't. 

A tweak could be to ask Cash to not get forward as much and then have Buendia move wide more often and allow the central space be occupied by a player getting forward from midfield. Leave the other two midfielders and Cash to cover. Potentially could play Chambers in RB and allow him to join right midfield. 

Or we could have RM become RF. We could play Buendia / Young in right side of midfield but asked to get forward on the right to provide the width and Cash/Chambers tucks in to midfielder to cover. 

This way our wide attacking players are talented with the final ball. Digne/Buendia/Young. We then play JJ or Carney in the vacant 10 role. 

[Made In Aston]

14 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

Cheers I was trying to find that yesterday.  The Gerrard Nipple system.

It's definitely gone tits up. 

[CVByrne]

I think we need to find a way to become dangerous from the wide spaces and the only way I can think of to do that is to have players in those positions who can take on a defender and beat them, this will create the space. So whatever way we do this on the right side we need to have the RB move in to the right central midfield position and either the right mid player going wide or the 10 going wide and right mid moving into 10 position. 

If we had Buendia, Luiz and Chambers on the right side it would work. Luiz moving forward into the space vacated by Buendia and Chambers taking the right mid position. To me that's a tweak to the system on the right side that works. Problem there is we have nobody to play in the 6 role. So we could play Carney instead of Luiz there. What we're doing is creating an attacking 5 of

Digne, Coutinho, Ings, Carney, Buendia instead of Digne, Coutinho, Ings, Buendia, Cash

[JPJCB]

41 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

The issue we have is that the two red dots in the lower part of the nipple are never there.

The wing backs get exposed,  and knackered trying to cover both ends of the pitch at all times. 

The offence becomes way too narrow as a result, and easy to defend against.

We don't have the players for this system. All our midfielders are too offensively minded,  and noone seems to be fit enough. 

Bizarre situation we find ourselves in. 

Somethings gone wrong with how the system is being deployed at the moment. The whole point of it in Michael beale’s words is to “defend the centre of the pitch” but that graphic, albeit an exaggeration, shows the opposite happening with one lone DM in the middle. 
 

we’ve got to revert to the way it worked in SG’s first few games with the fullbacks starting much deeper and the two number 8s much narrower. That would solidify us

[IrishVilla10]

I would go 4231 with JJ in the middle of Buendia and coutinho. Ings up top. That still leaves us with the problem of having two 8s playing deep though. You could even go Luiz and Chambers in front of the back 4. 

[duke313]

1 minute ago, IrishVilla10 said:

I would go 4231 with JJ in the middle of Buendia and coutinho. Ings up top. That still leaves us with the problem of having two 8s playing deep though. You could even go Luiz and Chambers in front of the back 4. 

I've thought this as well, traditional 4231 with a double pivot of a holding mid (Chambers) and a more attack minded player (McGinn/Luiz/Sanson).  Another performance and result in the next match and I think some fans will start to turn on SG.

[IrishVilla10]

Something like this 

[IrishVilla10]

4 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I've thought this as well, traditional 4231 with a double pivot of a holding mid (Chambers) and a more attack minded player (McGinn/Luiz/Sanson).  Another performance and result in the next match and I think some fans will start to turn on SG.

I’ve been impressed with chambers on the ball, I think he’s much better than konsa in that sense. I think he could do a job there beside one of our CMs. Would also put an end to seeing JJ playing left back 

[MrBlack]

4 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Something like this 

This is what I'd go for.

Bailey coming on for Buendia/ Ramsey later on, and Sanson for Chambers if we need to go more attacking. 

[duke313]

9 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Something like this 

I think for this to work, Cash has to stay back a bit.  Digne can go forward and Chambers can fill in.

[CVByrne]

5 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Something like this 

 

We won't change the formation because that basically means we're tearing up everything that has been worked on under Gerrard so far. I think a tweak to have a different player in the wide right position to provide the width instead of Cash is what is needed while keeping the rest of the 4 3 2 1 the same. 

So in attack we look like this for example

Digne          Ings               Buendia

           Coutinho     Luiz

JJ         Chambers            Cash

     Mings             Konsa

 

You drop McGinn for Chambers and move Luiz to right midfield and he moves into 10 position as Buendia moves right.

[duke313]

4 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

 

We won't change the formation because that basically means we're tearing up everything that has been worked on under Gerrard so far. I think a tweak to have a different player in the wide right position to provide the width instead of Cash is what is needed while keeping the rest of the 4 3 2 1 the same. 

So in attack we look like this for example

Digne          Ings               Buendia

           Coutinho     Luiz

JJ         Chambers            Cash

     Mings             Konsa

 

You drop McGinn for Chambers and move Luiz to right midfield and he moves into 10 position as Buendia moves right.

Very few teams stick to the same formation every game.  You need a plan B, if SG and the team don't have an alternative plan then he's in trouble.

[IrishVilla10]

3 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

 

We won't change the formation because that basically means we're tearing up everything that has been worked on under Gerrard so far. I think a tweak to have a different player in the wide right position to provide the width instead of Cash is what is needed while keeping the rest of the 4 3 2 1 the same. 

So in attack we look like this for example

Digne          Ings               Buendia

           Coutinho     Luiz

JJ         Chambers            Cash

     Mings             Konsa

 

You drop McGinn for Chambers and move Luiz to right midfield and he moves into 10 position as Buendia moves right.

JJ got exposed so badly against Watford. He can’t be in that position again. It makes zero sense to me having a ball carrying midfielder slotted into left back. I honestly think the width from fullbacks is so overrated unless you have Trent or Robertson getting up and down. We don’t even have a target man in the middle for when these crosses even make it into the box. With the formation I’ve sent in cash and Digne can overlap when the chance comes and the two in the middle can fill the gap then. Rather than them both playing so high up the pitch. Something needs to change

[VillaParkAvenue]

25 minutes ago, JPJCB said:

Somethings gone wrong with how the system is being deployed at the moment. The whole point of it in Michael beale’s words is to “defend the centre of the pitch” but that graphic, albeit an exaggeration, shows the opposite happening with one lone DM in the middle. 
 

we’ve got to revert to the way it worked in SG’s first few games with the fullbacks starting much deeper and the two number 8s much narrower. That would solidify us

I think this could sort itself out against Brighton. They will have the ball and since we don’t really press, there’s not much of an alternative but to sit back and defend. Brighton was the first game under Gerrard and we defended well in that narrow shape in November while they had 70 percent possession.

[CVByrne]

Brighton are a possession based team and are playing at home so we hopefully can look to break on turnover ball quickly like we did against Leeds. 

I do feel one small tweak with regards the right side is needed. Cash is poor in attack and good in defence. We should stop pushing him so far forward on the right side. We should allow him to focus a bit more defensively and use another player to provide the width. hat one tweak will make a big difference 

Luiz has taken so many set pieces he is believed to have a good delivery. He should be playing 8 and be told to take up the wide position and Cash covers for him. Instead of Cash getting into wide position and McGinn covering.

Edited February 21, 2022 by CVByrne

[IrishVilla10]

Two examples of our fullbacks receiving the ball wide. We’re not hurting anyone from these positions

[duke313]

2 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

JJ got exposed so badly against Watford. He can’t be in that position again. It makes zero sense to me having a ball carrying midfielder slotted into left back. I honestly think the width from fullbacks is so overrated unless you have Trent or Robertson getting up and down. We don’t even have a target man in the middle for when these crosses even make it into the box. With the formation I’ve sent in cash and Digne can overlap when the chance comes and the two in the middle can fill the gap then. Rather than them both playing so high up the pitch. Something needs to change

Makes zero sense.  JJ is at his best when driving forward with the ball (similar to SG himself as a player in that way).  Having our best young player sit back and defend at left back is insanity.  

[VillaParkAvenue]

26 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I've thought this as well, traditional 4231 with a double pivot of a holding mid (Chambers) and a more attack minded player (McGinn/Luiz/Sanson).  Another performance and result in the next match and I think some fans will start to turn on SG.

Don’t think any of the players in the double pivot should be that attacking. McGinn could be benched while Chambers/Sanson, Chambers/Luiz or Sanson/Luiz could be options (assuming Iroegbunam isn’t ready as he’s yet to play a single minute).

[CVByrne]

Chambers in RB and Sanson Right Midfield. Sanson gets forward on the right to provide the width and Chambers tucks into midfield covering. So Cambers for Cash, Sanson for McGinn. It's a small tweak to the system and personnel which might work to fix the right side in attack and be better in defending in transition.