Carney Chukwuemeka

[GingerCollins29]

12 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Isn't his brother at Northampton? They may stay up in league 1 so wouldn't be worst to send him there.

Interesting what we do with likes of Kesler, JPB and Louie Barry next season. These are decisions Mile will have to make now in conjunction with first team staff.

For me, it's kesler who is closest to breaking through. Exciting times

[villa4europe]

I can see an argument for playing every week but "toughening them up" no it's nonsense, it's an old outdated cliche 

Football is no longer about scrubbing boots, shit facilities and being roughed up 

I think if the right club with the right set up and a style of football that we appreciate comes in for any youngster then we'll consider it but I don't think that playing every week for a league 1 or league 2 team is automatically better than training with our first team, being at BMH and working with our coaches 

You look at the current England set up and very few of them have spent time out on loan from the PL to league 1 or lower, grealish and kane being the obvious ones and both of them are good enough to argue that it didn't make them they were going to be great regardless, did league 1 "toughen" grealish up? Or did he get booted more on his PL debut? 

[VillaChris]

19 minutes ago, GingerCollins29 said:

For me, it's kesler who is closest to breaking through. Exciting times

Liked what I saw from Kesler in the Liverpool game...but big call just to make him deputy to Cash for next season especially given the pressure of we'd be expected to move further up the league.

I still think a 6 month loan at least would make sense from start of next season.

[Vive_La_Villa]

16 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

I can see an argument for playing every week but "toughening them up" no it's nonsense, it's an old outdated cliche 

Football is no longer about scrubbing boots, shit facilities and being roughed up 

I think if the right club with the right set up and a style of football that we appreciate comes in for any youngster then we'll consider it but I don't think that playing every week for a league 1 or league 2 team is automatically better than training with our first team, being at BMH and working with our coaches 

You look at the current England set up and very few of them have spent time out on loan from the PL to league 1 or lower, grealish and kane being the obvious ones and both of them are good enough to argue that it didn't make them they were going to be great regardless, did league 1 "toughen" grealish up? Or did he get booted more on his PL debut? 

I don’t know about league 1 and 2 but championship is a pretty solid league that produces a lot of talent. Cut it in the championship at a young age and you’ve got a chance in the Premier League.  Struggle in that league and it’s unlikely you’ll ever make it at the highest level in my opinion. 
 

Grealish was a special talent that smashed it in league 1 at 16. He was improving our first team at 17 and 18. Very rare that happens. I think the only player that could come close to that in the next year or two is Carney.  

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Liked what I saw from Kesler in the Liverpool game...but big call just to make him deputy to Cash for next season especially given the pressure of we'd be expected to move further up the league.

I still think a 6 month loan at least would make sense from start of next season.

He seems to light weight and error prone in the games Ive seen him play. Looks talented but nowhere near good enough to start in the Premier League in my opinion. 

[villa4europe]

6 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t know about league 1 and 2 but championship is a pretty solid league that produces a lot of talent. Cut it in the championship at a young age and you’ve got a chance in the Premier League.  Struggle in that league and it’s unlikely you’ll ever make it at the highest level in my opinion. 
 

Grealish was a special talent that smashed it in league 1 at 16. He was improving our first team at 17 and 18. Very rare that happens. I think the only player that could come close to that in the next year or two is Carney.  

But how many top players do get sent out on loan to the championship and cut it? Its surprisingly rare 

Playing every week in the lower leagues vs the quality of coaching at the PL club

And that's on the assumption that they'll play every week... 

And then all of that still doesn't mean that it toughens them up! 

Edited April 2, 2021 by villa4europe

[Dave-R]

28 minutes ago, GingerCollins29 said:

For me, it's kesler who is closest to breaking through. Exciting times

Would be nice to have Kessler, Chuk, Barry and Ramsey on bench for next season and start giving them minutes, at least let them have runs in cup games as well.

[useless]

Players toughening up in the lower leagues isn't about them cleaning boots, being roughed up, and poor facilities, all that's an outdated cliche.

Going on loan to the lower leagues gives them the experience of playing at level much higher than what they're used to, helps them to get used to the speed of the game and yes will better prepare them for the physical side of the game at senior level, if the option was there to send them to a championship club or an higher level of club abroad I'm sure we'd do it, but failing that Leagues One and Two and probably even the National League can give them vital experience

Naive in the extreme to think our youngsters wouldn't benefit from playing in league one or two over playing for the U23s.

[useless]

Kesler has been much improved over the last five or six games, I said it previously, but I feel it even more strongly now that I wouldn't be surprised to see him initially get some game time on our right wing, he's very good in that position and will be a good way of giving him some experience and in an area of the field where if he makes a mistake it would be less likely to be as costly if he made a similar mistake playing at right-back. Could probably be argued that he's the best right-winger in our academy at the moment.

Edited April 2, 2021 by useless

[Vive_La_Villa]

22 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

But how many top players do get sent out on loan to the championship and cut it? Its surprisingly rare 

Playing every week in the lower leagues vs the quality of coaching at the PL club

And that's on the assumption that they'll play every week... 

And then all of that still doesn't mean that it toughens them up! 

That’s a fair point actually. They normally get loaned out because they are deemed as not quite good enough yet and regular first team competitive football can hopefully improve them. If our youngsters are 17/18 and loaned out to lower leagues I think that’s still promising as it’s still very young age. If they are hitting 19 and above and loaned out then i personally don’t think they will make it for us and the level we aspire to be playing at. 
 

edit: you meant our players right? Rather than young players in general? 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[OutByEaster?]

25 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Grealish was a special talent that smashed it in league 1 at 16. He was improving our first team at 17 and 18.

Jack was eighteen years and three days old when he went on loan to Notts County.

 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

Just now, OutByEaster? said:

Jack was eighteen years and three days old when he went on loan to Notts County.

 

 

Was he? I though he made his debut for us at 17? Did he then go out on loan after that?

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Was he? I though he made his debut for us at 17? Did he then go out on loan after that?

Unused sub on one occasion at 16 then made his debut as a sub after the loan at 18. Made his first start at 19.

 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, Bob Funkhouse said:

Spent most that season at Notts County, made his debut for us as a sub at the very end of that season .

Worth pointing out too that he didn't make a first league start for us until almost a year later (April 2015). 

 

 

Just now, OutByEaster? said:

Unused sub on one occasion at 16 then made his debut after the loan at 18.

 

Fair enough. He was still loaned out a good age and improving us once starting at 19. If at 19+ players are being loaned out to Championship clubs and not really making an impression. I think it’s unlikely they will ever be good enough. 

[villa4europe]

10 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

That’s a fair point actually. They normally get loaned out because they are deemed as not quite good enough yet and regular first team competitive football can hopefully improve them. If our youngsters are 17/18 and loaned out to lower leagues I think that’s still promising as it’s still very young age. If they are hitting 19 and above and loaned out then i personally don’t think they will make it for us and the level we aspire to be playing at. 
 

edit: you meant our players right? Rather than young players in general? 

Both

Again look at the current England squad and its a real mix as to who did what, reece James had a successful loan spell at Wigan but TAA didn't, Mount had a successful loan spell at Derby but rice, JWP, foden didn't, sancho rashford and sterling didn't but Jack did

You then also have a lot of players who went out on loan but they weren't successful like Henderson and Kane

Like I said I think you need to look at the quality of the club that makes an offer and the suitability for each individual player, Chuk for example you don't want sent out to wherever Pulis shows up next 

There's no magic recipe for it

And I think that we as a club with our coaches and facilities can offer them something that lower league clubs can't, if (and its a big if) the lower league club offers them 90 mins a week then they offer something we cant

I'm not opposed to or against loans, what I do really disagree with though is the idea that loans are used to toughen them up to get used to men's football, I think that's bullshit, been spoken about here before that the idea that the championship is tougher or more physical or more aggressive than the PL is largely bullshit too, its rougher and the drop in quality will mean tackles are later and sloppier but there won't be a league 1 defender who can use his body and his strength as well as VVD so for example sending Barry to league 1 to learn how to play vs big guys... Thats nonsense, John Terry coaching and training with mings every day can teach him that

[Brumstopdogs]

 

[useless]

Playing against a league one or two defender is a lot closer to playing against premier league quality defenders than playing U23 football. Also people aren't proposing we send our youngsters on loan to the lower leagues because there's something unique about those leagues that will toughen them up, the talk about them going to those leagues is because they're unlikely to get a loan move at any higher level.

Regardless of whether it's the championship, league one or two, or even the national league, playing first team football when they're ready is much more beneficial than playing U23 football, can guarantee that Revan, Wright, and Archer are all better players after their loans.

Mark Delaney says it himself from around four minutes into this interview, doesn't really matter whether we like it or not, we'll continue sending our youngsters to the lower leagues as a matter of course, as part of their development, most academies up and down the country will be doing the same for exactly the same reasons. Only exception will be if any of our youngsters are deemed good enough to be wanted on loan by clubs at an higher level, or if we buy a club at an higher level abroad for the purpose of giving our youngsters game time there.

[mallett]

3 hours ago, villa4europe said:

You look at the current England set up and very few of them have spent time out on loan from the PL to league 1 or lower, grealish and kane being the obvious ones and both of them are good enough to argue that it didn't make them they were going to be great regardless, did league 1 "toughen" grealish up? Or did he get booted more on his PL debut? 

I agree with you that football has moved on to a certain degree but you are wrong about England players not having EFL experience.
 

Here is a link to an article that makes the point that 24 of 30 England players in a recent squad had a significant spell in the EFL as part of their development.

[mallett]

 One of the big differences one of the Villa coaches highlighted in a recent interview on Villa TV between U23 and EFL games is that for the U23 the performance is the most important thing and the result is secondary. Of course in the EFL the result is everything.

 

The focus on performance at U23 level represents part of English football coaching revolution of the past 20 years? as we attempted to develop more technical players and close the technical gap with players from Europe. I think that Delaney often doesn’t play his strongest team or plays players in a position which is not their natural position in order to help them develop. E.g. Barry on the wing or Bogarde at CB.

[wilko154]

Loaning players at a young age is necessary in my opinion. Listening to podcasts of former professionals its pretty unanimous that loans played a huge part in their development.

Anyone thinking that Chukwuemeka, Kesler, Barry and Ramsey are going to waltz straight into our first team and hit the ground running in the PL needs a reality check.

In my opinion there are 4 or 5 in the U23 setup that would benefit from loans next season in the lower leagues. Regular competitive football, grounds hopefully open with fans in, games that mean something to a local area and improving their game against seasoned professionals. Not all of those U23's will make it; and a route straight into our first team is a start stop experience as Jacob Ramsey and Keinan Davis have found this season; both would have benefitted from a loan to a Championship team if we had the squad available this year.

 

Back to Chukweuemeka though, I watched the game yesterday and he's very, very good. He reminds me of Paul Pogba (obviously a raw Paul Pogba), he controls games effortlessly, almost looks lazy but his calmness off and on the ball allows him to control the tempo of the game. Really good player who now needs to make the step up to the next level. I think he's currently the closest to making it to our first team.