Carney Chukwuemeka

[tinker]

15 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

Regular competitive football, grounds hopefully open with fans in, games that mean something to a local area and improving their game against seasoned professionals

This is the most important  part, not the technical  part of the game but the physiological part. Pressure to perform from fans and team mates will either make or break players. 

The only issue with loans is the loaning club has to have an incentive to grow the player.  Maybe selling the player with a huge sell on fee (we can buy them back if they are good enough) would be a better option,  that way we all benefit from a players development. 

[Kingman]

10 hours ago, GingerCollins29 said:

For me, it's kesler who is closest to breaking through. Exciting times

Surely we have to thank Southgate

[Keyblade]

9 hours ago, villa4europe said:

But how many top players do get sent out on loan to the championship and cut it? Its surprisingly rare 

Playing every week in the lower leagues vs the quality of coaching at the PL club

And that's on the assumption that they'll play every week... 

And then all of that still doesn't mean that it toughens them up! 

Spurs seem to ruin most of their youngsters like this. Even Harry Kane went on loan like 5 times and he was crap in all the spells. He just got lucky Roberto Soldado was crap and he got his chance (Tim Sherwood helped speed that along too). 

Right now Troy Parot seems to be heading the same way despite being highly rated and quite similar to Kane. Same goes for Oliver Skipp who I rate higher than Winks but he was lucky he got to be in and around the first team while they were thin in midfield and then established himself. I think I agree that first team action, however limited > endless stream of lower league loans. You just end up regressing to their level at some point. 

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

Spurs seem to ruin most of their youngsters like this. Even Harry Kane went on loan like 5 times and he was crap in all the spells. He just got lucky Roberto Soldado was crap and he got his chance (Tim Sherwood helped speed that along too). 

Right now Troy Parot seems to be heading the same way despite being highly rated and quite similar to Kane. Same goes for Oliver Skipp who I rate higher than Winks but he was lucky he got to be in and around the first team while they were thin in midfield and then established himself. I think I agree that first team action, however limited > endless stream of lower league loans. You just end up regressing to their level at some point. 

I'd disagree with that - every player is different and there isn't one rule that'll cover them all - that's why we have a loan manager now; it's all about finding the right fit for the individual player at hand. 

[villa4europe]

18 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I'd disagree with that - every player is different and there isn't one rule that'll cover them all - that's why we have a loan manager now; it's all about finding the right fit for the individual player at hand. 

Exactly 

The idea that these youngsters must go on loan in order to fulfill their potential isn't true, each player is different, each loan bid will have its own degree of suitability

But again the initial disagreement was that they need to go to the lower leagues to toughen up in men's football, that's the sentiment that I really don't agree with

[tinker]

How many players make it through from youth levels straight into the team and make an impact? We have one ATM. We have the best players at youth level but they don't progress . Take Davies and Watkins, Davies was a better prospect but will never get to Watkins level. 

Konsa, Mings, Cash, they all come through playing at lower levels after not been highly rated at youth level. 

Its not an easy problem to solve but it's arguably  the most important one we have. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by tinker

[sne]

This season might have been a year too early for these kids but moving forward I really hope that we utilize our youth players much more in and around the first team. So what if they don't instantly run the show and get some critique from a section of the fans. It's something they'll have to learn to live with anyway.

Man U, Chelsea, Liverplop, Arsenal and even Barcelona all manage to integrate and use their kids on a regular basis. We must learn that too or risk losing all these hopefully big prospects.

No issue against Smith here because as I said it's likely a season too soon for this group but it's been a Villa (fans anyway) special to always find excuses as to why any particular game is not the right one to give one of the kids some time on the pitch. 

 

 

[Philosopher]

I do believe there are times when a loan is absolutely necessary, and times when they are unnecessary. 

If a young player doesn't yet have the mindset to carry the responsibility of being in the starting line, up a loan to the lower leagues can show them the weight of what it means to play in a competitive men's league regardless of the level of the league. 

The u23's league is excellent from a technical standpoint, but the intensity, pace and aggressiveness pales in comparison to the Championship and even league 1.

In sending a talented youngster to league 1 and 2 what you’re doing is giving a chance to play football with a level of competitiveness that is similar the Premier, while the level of athleticism and technique matches or is within  the players capabilities.

For most young players at our academy it's not ability that holds them back, but mentality. So the lower leagues is a good place to send them to see if they have the mental fortitude to compete against seasoned pros.

For Jack this was necessary as he was always just playing for fun and and never really had to be ultra competitive to do well as his talent was so prodigious. The loan showed he had the persistence and bravery to deal with the dirty treatment he would inevitably have to deal with as well as the physical and mental rigors or player regular competitive football. Subsequently it's after the breakthrough here at Villa was he able to develop the professional approach to get where he is now.

Some players however it's clear they already have the mentality, in which case is probably best to hone their game at the club to make them ready for playing with the big boys, and so  introducing them gradually like Phil Foden or Gareth Barry.

Unless a player has already set himself apart in the youth set up, little will be known to the decision makers as to whether a player really has the mental qualities necessary. So for larger academies especially it's a case of when in doubt loan them out. If a player is clearly very talented and well known to all the coaches then if a loan is sactioned its for one of two reasons. Doubts about their mentality or not having room for them in the first team squad yet, but not wanting to hamper their development.

What I'm basically saying is the top prospects loans are generally necessary, but not necessarily for 'seasoning' a youngster, and the average prospect it's to see if they sink or swim. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Philosopher

[GingerCollins29]

I trust smith and the coaching team to mske the correct decisions regarding when he is introduced. Cant wait to see it though!

[AntrimBlack]

5 hours ago, tinker said:

This is the most important  part, not the technical  part of the game but the physiological part. Pressure to perform from fans and team mates will either make or break players. 

The only issue with loans is the loaning club has to have an incentive to grow the player.  Maybe selling the player with a huge sell on fee (we can buy them back if they are good enough) would be a better option,  that way we all benefit from a players development. 

In my opinion loans usually are simply to give their loan club a boost. Usually they are aware that they will be unable to buy the player. 

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

I do believe there are times when a loan is absolutely necessary, and time when they are unnecessary. 

If a young player doesn't yet have the mindset to carry the responsibility being in the starting line up a loan to the lower leagues can show them the weight of what it means to play in a competitive men's league regardless of the level of the league. 

The u23's league is excellent from a technical standpoint, but the intensity, pace and aggressiveness pales in comparison to the Championship and even league 1.

In sending a talented youngster to league 1 and 2 what you’re doing is giving a chance to play football with a level of competitiveness that is similar the Premier, while the level of athleticism and technique is matches or is within  the players capabilities.

For most young players at our academy it's not ability that holds them back but mentality. So the lower leagues is a good place to send them to see if they have the mental fortitude to compete against seasoned pros.

For Jack this was necessary as he was always just playing for fun and and never really had to be ultra competitive to do well as his talent was so prodigious. The loan showed he had the persistence and bravery to deal with the dirty treatment he would inevitably have to deal with as well as the physical and mental rigors or player regular competitive football. Subsequently it's after the breakthrough here at Villa was he able to develop the professional approach to get where he is now.

Some players however it's clear they already have the mentality, in which case is probably best to hone their game at the club to make them ready for playing with big boy and introduce them gradually like Phil Foden or Gareth Barry.

Unless a player has already set himself apart in the youth set up, little will be known to the decision makers as to whether a player really has the mental qualities necessary so for larger academies especially it's a case of when in doubt loan them out. If a player is clearly very talented and well known to all the coaches then if a loan is sactioned its for one of two reasons. Doubts about their mentality or not having room for them in the first team squad yet, but not wanting to hamper their development.

What I'm basically saying is the top prospects loans are generally necessary, but not necessarily for 'seasoning' a youngster, and the average prospect it's to see if they sink or swim. 

Good post, and the bolded is key IMO. Our U23s not so long ago lost about 8-0 to Sunderland's first team. The pretty patterns and technical movement and so on was torn apart by pace, power, and especially heading ability from corners. I think this conversation about 'toughening up' is happening a bit at cross-purposes. I would hope that nobody today thinks that loans are primarily about cleaning boots and hazing rituals, but about playing regular, competitive football at full pace.

[tinker]

17 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

In my opinion loans usually are simply to give their loan club a boost. Usually they are aware that they will be unable to buy the player. 

A financial benefit to them is needed as well. The clubs that take loan players need to make money developing players and then selling them (a loan player doesnt do this) Look at Watkins and how his success has bounced down  the clubs he has played for . Bet they have made more money from his success than any other revenue  stream they have.

Selling players with buy back clauses and sell on fees makes more sense and has a greater chance of producing players we can actually buy back at a low price and use in the first team. 

 

[cheltenham_villa]

6 hours ago, wilko154 said:

Loaning players at a young age is necessary in my opinion. Listening to podcasts of former professionals its pretty unanimous that loans played a huge part in their development.

Anyone thinking that Chukwuemeka, Kesler, Barry and Ramsey are going to waltz straight into our first team and hit the ground running in the PL needs a reality check.

In my opinion there are 4 or 5 in the U23 setup that would benefit from loans next season in the lower leagues. Regular competitive football, grounds hopefully open with fans in, games that mean something to a local area and improving their game against seasoned professionals. Not all of those U23's will make it; and a route straight into our first team is a start stop experience as Jacob Ramsey and Keinan Davis have found this season; both would have benefitted from a loan to a Championship team if we had the squad available this year.

 

Back to Chukweuemeka though, I watched the game yesterday and he's very, very good. He reminds me of Paul Pogba (obviously a raw Paul Pogba), he controls games effortlessly, almost looks lazy but his calmness off and on the ball allows him to control the tempo of the game. Really good player who now needs to make the step up to the next level. I think he's currently the closest to making it to our first team. 

i think loans can be great for the correct player. The problem is we dont get to hear the other side of the story. Their must be many young footballers, 18-19 year olds that are just not able to deal with the pressure of being away from home and away from everything they know, the loan system could be breaking those players but they just become another player that didnt make it. Take the likes of Louie Barry, ive only heard him talk a few times but he often references his family and the support they give him, I wondered at the time how difficult a move to Barca away from everything he knew could have been for him.

Id like to see clubs consider the player and what they really need for their development. City appeared to do this with Foden.

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 hours ago, wilko154 said:

Loaning players at a young age is necessary in my opinion. Listening to podcasts of former professionals its pretty unanimous that loans played a huge part in their development.

Anyone thinking that Chukwuemeka, Kesler, Barry and Ramsey are going to waltz straight into our first team and hit the ground running in the PL needs a reality check.

In my opinion there are 4 or 5 in the U23 setup that would benefit from loans next season in the lower leagues. Regular competitive football, grounds hopefully open with fans in, games that mean something to a local area and improving their game against seasoned professionals. Not all of those U23's will make it; and a route straight into our first team is a start stop experience as Jacob Ramsey and Keinan Davis have found this season; both would have benefitted from a loan to a Championship team if we had the squad available this year.

 

Back to Chukweuemeka though, I watched the game yesterday and he's very, very good. He reminds me of Paul Pogba (obviously a raw Paul Pogba), he controls games effortlessly, almost looks lazy but his calmness off and on the ball allows him to control the tempo of the game. Really good player who now needs to make the step up to the next level. I think he's currently the closest to making it to our first team. 

I said the same. I like how he glides past players. It almost seemed to easy for him so he wasn’t giving his all. I think it would benefit him to play in more intense pressure games that have more at stake. 

[VillaChris]

14 hours ago, mallett said:

I agree with you that football has moved on to a certain degree but you are wrong about England players not having EFL experience.
 

Here is a link to an article that makes the point that 24 of 30 England players in a recent squad had a significant spell in the EFL as part of their development.

It depends on the individual really. Saka at Arsenal never went on loan but Smith-Rowe was at Huddersfield this time last year and that pushed him on to challenge for first team spot this season.

Also a good way of bringing money into the club if they can't quite break through, Liverpool wouldn't have got anywhere near 20m for Brewster if he hadn't had that good scoring run for Swansea.

[mallett]

Here is a link to a video focusing on Chukwuemeka's game against Reading recently which some might find interesting. 

Seeing Chukeuemeka's contributions like this does highlight areas for growth which perhaps I as a non-professional miss when watching a game.

I just remember the great parts where he brushes past people or makes some cute passes.

He's an exciting prospect but still needs to develop his game before he is properly ready for the first team.

[DevonIsAPlaceOnEarth]

Saw a bit of the youth cup game vs Burton, and although Barry took the plaudits Chukwuemeka looked the real deal to me.

[barry'sboots]

Looks like a real talent but he is still very young and looks a bit lightweight/gangly for a tall lad.

I think this is the biggest challenge for the academy - the route map through for the talent.

Does he benefit more from a year out or a year working with Ollie Stevenson to build up his physique and then go out next season??

I hope we get it right and Carney is playing alongside Jack, Emi, Ezri, the Ramseys, Barry, Kessler, Chrisene, JPB and Haaland () in a few years time!!

[TheAuthority]

From that video you can see that he gets knocked down, but he gets up again.

[OxfordVillan]

6 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

Looks like a real talent but he is still very young and looks a bit lightweight/gangly for a tall lad.

I think this is the biggest challenge for the academy - the route map through for the talent.

Does he benefit more from a year out or a year working with Ollie Stevenson to build up his physique and then go out next season??

I hope we get it right and Carney is playing alongside Jack, Emi, Ezri, the Ramseys, Barry, Kessler, Chrisene, JPB and Haaland () in a few years time!!

I’d say it’s integral that the younger players are put on individual strength programmes to make them the best physical specimen they can possibly be. And I’m sure that’s the case with Villa having a shiny and new training facility.