Recruitment

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

If it's that easy, why doesn't every PL have a PL standard LB? Or PL standard players across every position?

And what if we signed another Trez or Wesley at LB? Fans would be yelling 'why didn't we buy someone with PL experience?' or 'Why didn't we spend the money better?'

Targett made a hell of a lot of sense as a signing. PL experience, young, has talent. Is a contrast to the likes of Wesley, Trez who didn't have the PL experience.

Just because it hasn't 100% worked out doesn't mean it wasn't a logical signing at the time.

I just feel it's very easy to criticise or praise any signing in hindsight. People are criticising the Targett and Trez signing when both are totally different in terms of logic.

I think your logic is tainted.

To be a successful talent spotter your vision of a player has to play out, of course it can go wrong......but that is your stock in trade, to see beyond what your average Joe, like me and you can.....I guess they get retained on their success ratio amongst other things.

If you went in to a boardroom  and they questioned some of your recommended signings that had bore no fruit and you said " i thought the signing was logical at the time" after they finished laughing ...you would be fired......Alan Sugar style......this is their money or money they are responsible for.

this is just one example remember, so don't get too hung up on Targett, its the principle to focus on.......£14 mill at the moment for what he is producing looks a lot of money,imo  tomorrow, he might have a blinder and prove me wrong.....hope he does.

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

'14m is a lot of money' is simply false in PL 2020.

[wazzap24]

We recruited well and the majority of the players we have signed will come good. 

Even those deemed to be less successful over time (over time being more than half a season in a newly promoted side with 10 other new signings bedding in) will hold their value or even increase given the prices we paid. 

Our biggest signing has already doubled in value and McGinn is worth around 10x what we paid. Others will come good.

Too much of a clamour to write everybody off too soon. 

 

[MarkLillis]

1 hour ago, Blasterpocket68 said:

I take issue with this. I agree social media can be a influence but all clubs and staff have this issue to deal with . The VP crowd whilst can be subdued at times is very supportive of new and young players.  

Yes VP fans can be supportive, Wes had a fair amount of support for example.

What I would say is when the sh@t is hitting the fan on the pitch and the crowd is restless young players need to be able to look for senior figures on the pitch (or even better..... partners in midfield or defence) to carry them through the tough times.

I can think of at least three games when our young team has been woefully hung out to dry Chelsea away 0-8 Liverpool at home 0-6 and Man City at home 1-6.

I remember the look of fear in Westwood's eyes walking back after one of those goals at Chelsea. What im trying to say is these kids need someone in the trenches with them sand we aren't often good at supplying the right type of player.

Watch Indiana start up front tomorrow and see what happens if it doesn't go to plan for an example.....

[mole86]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think you picked up on the previous posts that the point was an answer to.

Maybe that's because you completely moved the goalposts from the original point.

Someone made the point that people weren't exactly queuing up to pluck Mings out of Bournemouth's reserves last year, nor was it unanimously celebrated as a signing on here (rightfully so given his injury record).

Your response of 'even Doris the Tea Lady knew we needed him' completely missed the point being made; that whilst we all might well have known we needed a Centre Half last January, it was our Recruitment team that made the masterstroke of getting Mings in. I twasn't in anyway an obvious signing, most of the early pages of his thread are filled with people assuming he was signed to replace Taylor at left back.

It's completely rewriting history and harms any chance of serious debate, particularly given the infantile and unfunny allusion to Doris the Tea Lady.

[Sam-AVFC]

I don’t have an issue with people saying we could have done better without having a list of names...unless they are citing ‘PL experience’ as that narrows it massively,  particularly considering we’re not in a position to take any other team in the league’s first choice.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Sam-AVFC

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It wasn't a loaded question, don't give me that much credit.

You started a thread about recruitment, I challenged you on one of your views and you gave a poor response. 

I have my views clear on Targett. I think people criticising him as a player right now are fair.

But as a signing at the time. I'm sorry, just because it hasn't worked out fully doesn't mean it was a bad signing at the time. It made a lot of sense. It ticked boxes other signings didn't.

**** me after all that you agree.

I thought your challenge was poor, sorry....to ask who I would have got instead, i seen as a deviation.

But talent spotters get valued/Appriased on their vision, that may seem harsh, but its their stock in trade....whether it was right at time, time judges those things.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, mole86 said:

Maybe that's because you completely moved the goalposts from the original point.

Someone made the point that people weren't exactly queuing up to pluck Mings out of Bournemouth's reserves last year, nor was it unanimously celebrated as a signing on here (rightfully so given his injury record).

Your response of 'even Doris the Tea Lady knew we needed him' completely missed the point being made; that whilst we all might well have known we needed a Centre Half last January, it was our Recruitment team that made the masterstroke of getting Mings in. I twasn't in anyway an obvious signing, most of the early pages of his thread are filled with people assuming he was signed to replace Taylor at left back.

It's completely rewriting history and harms any chance of serious debate, particularly given the infantile and unfunny allusion to Doris the Tea Lady.

sorry for the humour.....but I have to take it too.

We took Mings on loan and due to his superb form and obvious impact on the team and the permanent signing was obvious to me....sure we got had over a barrel due to the fee, but that has proved good vision.

Forgive me for my unattentive focus on him being a full back, and my full focus on him being a centre back, I was blinded to the fact.....and I can think of many other fans were too.

Maybe we will chalk that one down as an inspired signing then.

apologies to Doris the Tea Lady.

 

[Laughable Chimp]

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

In the Prem £10 is below the average price for a player purchase, so RELATIVELY, they are cheap.  Plus, if we go down, we don't have to sell them because they have long contracts.  If we sold any of them, it would NOT be for less than we paid, because we'd just play them in the Championship. 

£140m was the TV money for this season, it doesn't even cover 3 years of parachute payments, which would enable us to replace any of our core (Mings/Jack) with lesser quality, but enough quality to be good in the Championship. 

Sounds good, doesn't work. Last time we went down, we sold none of our young players for any kind of profit and some of these guys are being touted for insane fees nowafays. And we held on to some of them for more than a season too. No one is gonna pay much more than we paid for the likes of Trezeguet, Nakamba, El Ghazi, Luiz, Wesley etc if we get relegated because they aren't gonna come out of the season looking all that great to begin with. Not that we know they'd be top level championshio good anyway, something I feel we're taking for granted with some of our players. 

Replacing your best players always comes with a big if tbh. I think its very much taken for granted that we can. We'll have the money for at least that first season, but as we all know, money by itself isn't enough.

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Our recruitment, for the most part, has been woeful lately. 
I know no-one wants to hear it and I'll be lectured about how it's actually great for the money spent and the age of player brought in, but it really isnt. 

My biggest concern is that when we go down, we'll be stuck with the likes of Nakamba, Trezeguet, Wesley and El Ghazi. We won't recoup half of what we paid if someone is willing to take them off our hands and they'd all struggle in the championship. 

Can you imagine the above players playing without Grealish? It would be desperate. Can you imagine Hause and Konsa at the back without Mings? 

If Grealish is moved back into the middle against Watford, we could very well line up with a front 3 of Vassilev, Trezeguet and El Ghazi. That is absolutely shocking for the money we've spent. Even if you threw Wesley in, it wouldnt be much better.

A few are in for a shock next season if we don't survive. 

I think as much as it pains me, your analytics are feasible.

your highlights are clear and present danger for me.

I hope we come through it and Samatta turns out to be a gem.

Mings and Jack, need some REAL help.

[BigJim]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

For such a long time now we have had a very hit & miss success rate

 

This has been puzzling me for a long time. I remember when MON signed Reo Coker. Having hardly heard of him I turned to Youtube. In two minutes anybody could see that he would never be able to hit a pass to save his life. I have experienced the same reaction several times when looking at our new players, and it is rare that I change my mind after watching a few performances live.

Now you obviously can't make decisions based solely on video clips. But while attributes like price, experience, fitness, character, temperament and availability are all important,  I do sometimes feel that when we sign players we don't give enough consideration to pure footballing ability. 

 

 

[Five Ken McNaughts]

Last season, in my opinion, we had 4 stand-out match-winners (Jack, Mings, Abraham, McGinn). This season, I think we've had a maximum of 3.5 in that bracket (Jack, Mings, Heaton and an off-colour McGinn). I'm not writing off any of our new outfield signings, but if just one had been able to take the season by the scruff of the neck and step into that top echelon of influential players, I think our campaign would be looking very different.

[Pimlico_Villa]

It’s also about picking the right players for the right time, not just identifying players that will one day come good. That’s where Suso has cost us this season. 

[Graham t]

2 hours ago, wazzap24 said:

We recruited well and the majority of the players we have signed will come good. 

Even those deemed to be less successful over time (over time being more than half a season in a newly promoted side with 10 other new signings bedding in) will hold their value or even increase given the prices we paid. 

Our biggest signing has already doubled in value and McGinn is worth around 10x what we paid. Others will come good.

Too much of a clamour to write everybody off too soon. 

 

If the recruitment was so successful then why are we in the relegation zone? Also how many of our great summer signings are in danger of being poached by other clubs, none I would suggest.....

[Pimlico_Villa]

The other aspect to the equation when signing young players is that you have to have the coaching capacity to devote time to one on one coaching. Same with conditioning, you need to develop younger players physically. Without all of it coming together, it is not an effective recruitment strategy and is exactly where we’ve fallen short. 
 

I think we’ve identified talent, but just haven’t been able to give them the individual attention needed to develop them properly because we’ve only looked at the collective 11. 
 

Look at other teams that have younger players. They are in much superior physical condition than Targett, Trez, Wesley, etc. 

[sharkyvilla]

17 minutes ago, Graham t said:

If the recruitment was so successful then why are we in the relegation zone? Also how many of our great summer signings are in danger of being poached by other clubs, none I would suggest.....

We had roughly 12 out so 12 in, roughly £10-12m each which is relative peanuts for Premier League standards these days.  I suspect most of the players will get better over the next few years like Gueye, Veretout, Amavi, Ayew etc have made decent fists of become top division players all across Europe despite getting relegated with us.  Just right now it's touch and go as to whether this lot will keep us up and not helped by a few season-ending injuries to key players.

Overall I quite like our recruitment process, it sounded like we had 4 targets for each position, some which Dean came up with, some Suso did along with his scouts.  It's then a case of getting players in though the door which doesn't always mean your first choice as there are loads of factors involved, some of which you can't control.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

@TRO has said a few times he doesn't have knowledge of a wide range of players. That doesn't make him wrong to say Targett was bad value at £11-16m or whatever he was.

Manning from QPR we could have got for 3 or 4 million.

Phillip Max from Augsburg for £5-8m.

Anthony Caci from Strasbourg for £6-10m.

I would guess all of those would be on less money than Targett as well.

You see I wouldn't know any of them....Villa4life would he's a football scout.

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, Pimlico_Villa said:

The other aspect to the equation when signing young players is that you have to have the coaching capacity to devote time to one on one coaching. Same with conditioning, you need to develop younger players physically. Without all of it coming together, it is not an effective recruitment strategy and is exactly where we’ve fallen short. 
 

I think we’ve identified talent, but just haven’t been able to give them the individual attention needed to develop them properly because we’ve only looked at the collective 11. 
 

Look at other teams that have younger players. They are in much superior physical condition than Targett, Trez, Wesley, etc. 

you see, when I started this thread...I was hoping for sensible posts like that....opening up the debate and discussing shortfalls or not, depending on the view.

good points.

ps I felt i had run over someones cat earlier.

 

[TRO]

54 minutes ago, Five Ken McNaughts said:

Last season, in my opinion, we had 4 stand-out match-winners (Jack, Mings, Abraham, McGinn). This season, I think we've had a maximum of 3.5 in that bracket (Jack, Mings, Heaton and an off-colour McGinn). I'm not writing off any of our new outfield signings, but if just one had been able to take the season by the scruff of the neck and step into that top echelon of influential players, I think our campaign would be looking very different.

A prize for that man.....its what I have been trying to say.....without having my 60 years loyalty to the club questioned.

[BigJim]

9 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

We had roughly 12 out so 12 in, roughly £10-12m each which is relative peanuts for Premier League standards these days.  I suspect most of the players will get better over the next few years like Gueye, Veretout, Amavi, Ayew etc have made decent fists of become top division players all across Europe despite getting relegated with us.  Just right now it's touch and go as to whether this lot will keep us up and not helped by a few season-ending injuries to key players.

Overall I quite like our recruitment process, it sounded like we had 4 targets for each position, some which Dean came up with, some Suso did along with his scouts.  It's then a case of getting players in though the door which doesn't always mean your first choice as there are loads of factors involved, some of which you can't control.

IIRC these players had a better reputation when we signed them than most of those we signed in the summer - i.e. a bit less of a risk. And with the exception of Veretout I though they did quite well for us.