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TRO

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24 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

The micro, and I mean micro analysis of Aston Villa is fine - but when you cannot put things in to any sort of context, and your points are so thin it makes greasy chip paper look like the concrete walls of the fuhrerbunker - then all hope is lost. 

Generally speaking @TRO - I agree with a lot of what you say, but this topic in particular highlights that you are sometimes unable to think about what is actually going on.

im GIF

I agree with lots of folk and not, if I feel they are wrong I say so and vice versa.

I too , have agreed with lots of your posts......I feel you have gone off on a tangent and failed to see, what I am saying....judging by the above you still do

Micro analysis is a misrepresented word for the moment......I am talking simplicity, simple things to be executed by players, its not even nit picking, it is there too much and not being addressed.

I cannot make my points more clear and I have never heard of that German place, for what relevance that has.

so we disagree., I appreciate you candour.

I still think the recruitment is iffy, when I have reason to change my mind, I will let you know.

Edited by TRO
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1 hour ago, MarkLillis said:

We have a issue when buying young players.

On the pitch they are not surrounded by the right type of senior player.

Its been happening for years...going back to Cahill and Ridgewell having form a partnership rather than being thrown in with a more senior defender.More recently this crop of players having to settle in with only the likes of Elmo,Taylor and Connor to look at when the chips are down.

I don’t even think it’s the recruiting that’s the problem.

Its the way we introduce our young players to the first team.Especially considering the toxic nature of (some) fans.

I take issue with this. I agree social media can be a influence but all clubs and staff have this issue to deal with . The VP crowd whilst can be subdued at times is very supportive of new and young players.  

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1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

Our recruitment, for the most part, has been woeful lately. 
I know no-one wants to hear it and I'll be lectured about how it's actually great for the money spent and the age of player brought in, but it really isnt. 

My biggest concern is that when we go down, we'll be stuck with the likes of Nakamba, Trezeguet, Wesley and El Ghazi. We won't recoup half of what we paid if someone is willing to take them off our hands and they'd all struggle in the championship. 

Can you imagine the above players playing without Grealish? It would be desperate. Can you imagine Hause and Konsa at the back without Mings? 

If Grealish is moved back into the middle against Watford, we could very well line up with a front 3 of Vassilev, Trezeguet and El Ghazi. That is absolutely shocking for the money we've spent. Even if you threw Wesley in, it wouldnt be much better.

A few are in for a shock next season if we don't survive. 

and there lies the crux of it all.

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2 minutes ago, TRO said:

your exaggeration hold no bounds.

  • Hourihane a leader?, are you watching the same game as me.....He is a luxury player, who has a wand of a left foot and little else.
  • Your talking about not having a club watch, and I am talking about giving the ball away too cheaply.
  • Jack and Tyrone ,can't do it all on their own, sure JM is a major set back.....its the others that concern me, with basic stuff looking difficult to master.
  • Apart from a bit of muscle as if its a nice add on to have......its crucial,its bloody central to this league.
  • I never moaned last summer, about the one striker, because, I though it would be pointless, I knew it had consequences (but £130 mill is a huge amount to pay out in one window) and now they are being played out.
  • "as close to perfect as it could have been".....I disagree.

I honestly think we paid out about £50 million on players that I would call dubious signings and that money could have been spent better.

If these players come good I will happily withdraw my comments.....and I sincerely hope I am wrong.

I hope you are too Tro. 

I don't think you can't call Hourihane "not a leader" tbh.  He was Barnsley captain.  Is he a good player for the Premier League?  Not in the system we are playing at the moment, no.  If we had a better midfield, I actually think he could do a good job as second striker where he wouldn't have to defend as much, because he has no pace and little physicality.  But he is good technically.

Muscle doesn't come cheap.  Sissoko has been much derided over the last few years for his lack of technique, his shitty passing, his embarrassing shooting - but he's strong isn't he? That's a £30m player 4 years ago, on over £100k a week - That is not the sort of money we're looking at. 

Or were you looking at Kante?  Because who wouldn't - right?  Are we looking before he went to Chelsea for £32m?  Ok then, well let me show you someone who plays similarly, stature wise and play wise - Nakamba.  Is he as good?  Nope, did we really think we'd find another Kante?  Nope.  *Whisper* "Kante's not that strong either.." 

Everyone knew 1 striker wasn't enough - but we had Kodjia, who a lot of people thought would be good (for some reason) and Davies in reserve.  Did we all imagine Davies would get an injury for 6 months and Kodjia would have been absolutely toilet?  Nope. 

For everyone moaning about the summer, I ask - what would you have done better - as a guarantee?  Who would you have signed (who wanted to come and would have been available)? 

We're doing as well as I expected considering ALL OF THE STORY. 

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Why do people keep talking about our recruitment over the last few decades as if it has any relevance to where we are now? It’s almost a completely different setup. The reasons MON made recruiting mistakes will be different from the reasons Suso and DS are.

The main problem we have is that we got promoted with a threadbare squad and we are trying to build a team almost from scratch. This causes problems at any club at any level. It takes a while for players to develop a good understanding with each other.

Football is a team sport. Individual players look better when their team is playing well. We are rushing to judgment all over the place. There are so many knee jerk reactions at the moment.

The idea that players like Nakamba and El Ghazi wouldn’t be top players in the Championship, as someone said in this thread, is ludicrous. Nakamba would be class at that level, El Ghazi has already proven his ability at that level. Why are we acting as if they are League Two players? Fine, they’re struggling in the PL at the moment, but why exaggerate?

Recruitment and youth development are easier at stable, successful clubs, because players can be slowly integrated into the team. We haven’t been stable or successful for years. It’s a vicious cycle. For the first time in a very long time, we appear to be moving in the right direction. It will take time for this all to bed in.

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18 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

I get it, I do - I'm just the other side of the fence. 

I agree that there are players I'd have preferred to sign, over some of the ones we did sign - but that didn't happen unfortunately.  

I just see us acting with sustainability and it's been a very long time since I've seen that at villa.  It seems from 2010 onwards, we've been spending money on the pure hope of players rediscovering any form or desperate attempts to prove we're still "a big club" - a tag line for a season FFS, when really, it was a matter of time circling the shitty drain into the Championship.  Then obviously what happened down there happened, but we've got up by hook or crook. 

Maybe we wanted better players, but I don't think there was much doubt we were held to ransom by Brenford over Maupay and Benhrama.  

But I can see what we're trying to do and if we go down or not, I think we'll be losing some of our spine anyway, unless we see another miracle. 

What’s sustainable about buying players for 10/20m, getting relegated and then not being able to sell them for half the price you paid? 

There is nothing sustainable about spending 140m on players that may even struggle at Championship Level. 

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4 minutes ago, Blasterpocket68 said:

I take issue with this. I agree social media can be a influence but all clubs and staff have this issue to deal with . The VP crowd whilst can be subdued at times is very supportive of new and young players.  

Unless they don't score or play well in every game, I agree. 

Wesley, Luiz, Nakamba, El Ghazi have not always been supported and all of them are new/young. 

Edited by lapal_fan
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4 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

I hope you are too Tro. 

I don't think you can't call Hourihane "not a leader" tbh.  He was Barnsley captain.  Is he a good player for the Premier League?  Not in the system we are playing at the moment, no.  If we had a better midfield, I actually think he could do a good job as second striker where he wouldn't have to defend as much, because he has no pace and little physicality.  But he is good technically.

Muscle doesn't come cheap.  Sissoko has been much derided over the last few years for his lack of technique, his shitty passing, his embarrassing shooting - but he's strong isn't he? That's a £30m player 4 years ago, on over £100k a week - That is not the sort of money we're looking at. 

Or were you looking at Kante?  Because who wouldn't - right?  Are we looking before he went to Chelsea for £32m?  Ok then, well let me show you someone who plays similarly, stature wise and play wise - Nakamba.  Is he as good?  Nope, did we really think we'd find another Kante?  Nope.  *Whisper* "Kante's not that strong either.." 

Everyone knew 1 striker wasn't enough - but we had Kodjia, who a lot of people thought would be good (for some reason) and Davies in reserve.  Did we all imagine Davies would get an injury for 6 months and Kodjia would have been absolutely toilet?  Nope. 

For everyone moaning about the summer, I ask - what would you have done better - as a guarantee?  Who would you have signed (who wanted to come and would have been available)? 

We're doing as well as I expected considering ALL OF THE STORY. 

You make a lot of good points but I really just don't see this. Whilst it's true he was a captain at Barnsley and we can't speak for whatever influence he may have off the pitch I think football is just about levels, and set pieces aside Hourihane is not premier league standard. As a result he goes missing, rarely gets on and demands the ball, doesn't even particularly get stuck in. For me he shows absolutely no leadership on the pitch at this level so for me he's just not a leader.

Edited by Dr_Pangloss
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2 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

What’s sustainable about buying players for 10/20m, getting relegated and then not being able to sell them for half the price you paid? 

There is nothing sustainable about spending 140m on players that may even struggle at Championship Level. 

In the Prem £10 is below the average price for a player purchase, so RELATIVELY, they are cheap.  Plus, if we go down, we don't have to sell them because they have long contracts.  If we sold any of them, it would NOT be for less than we paid, because we'd just play them in the Championship. 

£140m was the TV money for this season, it doesn't even cover 3 years of parachute payments, which would enable us to replace any of our core (Mings/Jack) with lesser quality, but enough quality to be good in the Championship. 

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

You make a lot of good points but I really just don't see this. Whilst it's true he was a captain at Barnsley and we can't speak for whatever influence he may have off the pitch I think football is just about levels, and set pieces aside Hourihane is not premier league standard. As a result he goes missing, rarely gets on and demands the ball, doesn't even particularly get stuck in. For me he shows absolutely no leadership on the pitch at this level so for me he's just not a leader.

You're not wrong about leadership on the pitch.  I get that absolutely and I agree with you - he goes missing (like against Man City, treating the ball like a hot-tater). 

But I just don't see how you can captain a side (regardless of level) and not have any sort of leadership qualities.  

Even if you just admired how hard he's had to work to get an appearance and a few goals in the Premier League.  Let's not forget that he's probably learning this year too (about the levels required). 

But, I'd reiterate what I said, in a different system, I actually think he could play a mini David Platt role in a well functioning, settled team - because of his technical qualities. 

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1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

This thread is indicative of the problem football has on the whole - impatience. 

We're not just trying to build a team of football players.  We nearly went out of existence in July 2018, 18 months ago.  I don't think people remember back that far.  It's mental - we shouldn't even be in the Premier League this year.  We've had to rebuild an entire infrastructure, from top to bottom, whilst being able to pick 11 players to go and play football at a professional level - competitively. 

Dean Smith has been with us for 15 months, Suso has been here for 15 months, Nassef, Wes and Christian have been here for 18 months. 

The incredibly rapid rise we've seen since July 2018 has been nothing short of meteoric.  Our squad was breaking up before our very eyes, we were hours away from losing Jack on the cheap to keep the club afloat and had Nassef and Wes not come in when they did, I'd hate to think where we'd be at this moment - probably looking enviously up at Sunderland.  

So you'll all have to forgive me in thinking that this thread - and many other threads incessantly moaning about how shit we were for 45 minutes against Brighton away or that a player costing "£10m!!!!!!!!!" hasn't performed to the stupidly high expectations of you and your ignorant, unrealistic and lacking in any form of common sense buddies - is absolutely ridiculous. 

And I'm sat here, thinking "pfft.. we're actually doing pretty **** well all things considered". 

How we're even in the Premier League is beyond me.  Then we've had an entire squad build over 1 summer.  Think about that.  We lost all of our senior players, and all of the responsibility fell on the shoulders of a 24 year old.  

We're 1 point away from getting out the bottom 3.  Have you forgotten the season we got relegated?  We finished with 17 points!  We've already beaten that, with a completely new club, more or less.  It's astonishing. 

There are improvements to be made - but ffs, can we give the heirarchy the time to do it please?  

Our fan base is very demanding.. I don't like it, but what can you do?  We won the league a million years ago, and have I ever told you about when we conquered Europe? 

Sometimes, once we've pulled the trigger on yet another hapless manager, who did well to start, then went to shit (again) and it keeps happening, you think - what difference does it make?  

To me, the current set up looks good.  We're acting like a professional club.  We have aims and ambitions and we're not being stupid doing it (like spunking money on a striker).  What if we go down?  Well, we'd have the same manager, largely the same squad and I'd be very confident that we'd come up again.  

As far as I'm concerned, we must see this through - through thick or thin.  

Are there extenuating circumstances which may alter my belief?  Yep, there is.  Is Dean Smith my "God"? No, he's not.  But he performed a miracle to get us up, sooner than expected, we are competitive in the league (despite a couple of kickings), unless things go obviously south, quickly - then we, as a fan base, must stick by him and team.

SUPPORT THE CLUB. 

Good post. 

As a fanbase we really do have to change our mindset. 17th is and always has been a huge success if we achieve it this year. 

Too many of our fans have not been able to accept this and have fallen into an older mindset where fighting relegation isn't acceptable. Which, as you say, given the situation over the past few years is ridiculous. 

What I would say, is that I still believe our summer business is allowed to be criticised. I think we've made Smith's job harder by signing some of the players we have. 

In particular, the decision to spend so much on Wesley and no other striker in the summer has put us under immense pressure most of the season and especially now. I also think while we've signed some prospects we've struggled to sign people who make it difficult to play against. We are far too easy to play against at times and I'm not sure that quality always requires huge amounts of money. 

But the overall message is right. If we can't get behind this squad, with this manager and these owners then I fear nothing will ever get us fully behind the club.

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4 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

I hope you are too Tro. 

I don't think you can't call Hourihane "not a leader" tbh.  He was Barnsley captain.  Is he a good player for the Premier League?  Not in the system we are playing at the moment, no.  If we had a better midfield, I actually think he could do a good job as second striker where he wouldn't have to defend as much, because he has no pace and little physicality.  But he is good technically.

Muscle doesn't come cheap.  Sissoko has been much derided over the last few years for his lack of technique, his shitty passing, his embarrassing shooting - but he's strong isn't he? That's a £30m player 4 years ago, on over £100k a week - That is not the sort of money we're looking at. 

Or were you looking at Kante?  Because who wouldn't - right?  Are we looking before he went to Chelsea for £32m?  Ok then, well let me show you someone who plays similarly, stature wise and play wise - Nakamba.  Is he as good?  Nope, did we really think we'd find another Kante?  Nope.  *Whisper* "Kante's not that strong either.." 

Everyone knew 1 striker wasn't enough - but we had Kodjia, who a lot of people thought would be good (for some reason) and Davies in reserve.  Did we all imagine Davies would get an injury for 6 months and Kodjia would have been absolutely toilet?  Nope. 

For everyone moaning about the summer, I ask - what would you have done better - as a guarantee?  Who would you have signed (who wanted to come and would have been available)? 

We're doing as well as I expected considering ALL OF THE STORY. 

Look, I accept its all about opinions and yes circumstances can trip you up.....I would have gone for Bowen as opposed to Trezaguet.

I think losing Tammy was a bigger hit than anything we have faced, John Mc was struggling for form when he got injured, little did we know he was carrying a thigh tear.

I am not a scout and I do not have the plethora of information these clubs do......but I do know what attributes of a player are needed and where.

I too was not so hung up about Maupay, but I still think we could have spent the money better.

I am only guessing here, but I think Dean has less say in transfers than what is being let on.....He may tell them what he needs and then it is their interpretation, what that is....by then it gets tetchy if he says no.

something just don't quite sit with me.

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6 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

What’s sustainable about buying players for 10/20m, getting relegated and then not being able to sell them for half the price you paid? 

There is nothing sustainable about spending 140m on players that may even struggle at Championship Level

It’s far more likely that we make a healthy profit on most of our signings, regardless of whether we get relegated. The market continually inflated and we have signed young players who will continue to be attractive to other clubs.

I don’t think we’ve overspent at all. We just didn’t prioritise the short term objective of survival enough. But from an investment perspective, I don’t see any issues at all.

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8 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

In the Prem £10 is below the average price for a player purchase, so RELATIVELY, they are cheap.  Plus, if we go down, we don't have to sell them because they have long contracts.  If we sold any of them, it would NOT be for less than we paid, because we'd just play them in the Championship. 

£140m was the TV money for this season, it doesn't even cover 3 years of parachute payments, which would enable us to replace any of our core (Mings/Jack) with lesser quality, but enough quality to be good in the Championship. 

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING

I’m not sure having our summer signings on long contracts is a good thing.. 

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Just now, KentVillan said:

BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS A BIT INFURIATING

It’s not, it’s full of healthy debate. 

Personally, I think our summer signings have been extremely poor on the whole but I’m happy to listen to people who think otherwise. 

For me, the fact we are arguably no better as a team than we were last season having spent 140m and sitting in 18th place speaks volumes. 

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2 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

It’s not, it’s full of healthy debate. 

Personally, I think our summer signings have been extremely poor on the whole but I’m happy to listen to people who think otherwise. 

For me, the fact we are arguably no better as a team than we were last season having spent 140m and sitting in 18th place speaks volumes. 

Disagree. 

This team would piss the championship. 

And also you're forgetting some of that money went to secure players we had on loan last year. 

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Just now, Delphinho123 said:

It’s not, it’s full of healthy debate. 

Personally, I think our summer signings have been extremely poor on the whole but I’m happy to listen to people who think otherwise. 

For me, the fact we are arguably no better as a team than we were last season having spent 140m and sitting in 18th place speaks volumes. 

I know, I know, but I can see why people get heated when we keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again. The “doubters” definitely have a valid argument, I just wonder how many times we can repeat “I don’t rate [player X], I don’t think he’s worth £Xm” and then someone else replies that we don’t know yet how good he’ll be.

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