Recruitment

[TRO]

I think its one of the most single elements of criteria a football club that determines success.

For such a long time now we have had a very hit & miss success rate and with an academy that has only produced the odd star, its left us very vulnerable and unable to build on sustained success.....without sugar Daddy owners its hard to sustain and of course FFP has put the blocks on that.

Its even more important to have people with Nous who can spot talent and sophisticated systems and networks to aid.

From successive managers I have struggled to see the improvement in players, whilst witnessing the player improvement at other clubs....Traore as one example...Enda Stevens another

Its not one manager, I have felt it with loads of managers.....In contrast, I can think of managers of yesteryear, where just about every player, who came in, improved, some even switched positions and learnt the new job and still made great effect.

I don't profess to know the answer, but I think it is having a significant affect on our ability to improve as a team.

We need outfield players who can make an impact like the 2 Goalkeepers have, and not just have to wait for next season.

I look at players like Trossard, Tielmans, Maupay, Knockaert, all come from the french leagues,hasn't taken them long to pick up the pieces.....The Wolves lads have equally took to the Premier league very quickly.

No ,I have a real dubious view of what we are doing on this.

 

[KenjiOgiwara]

I sort of agree, but Maupay and Knockaert had lots of experience in English football before moving on to the PL. Tielsmans is just a quality above that. Trossard has had his own problems this season, his stats aren't exactly amazing. 

Our biggest problem isn't only recruitment atm. but that every new player coming into this incredibly tough league, will be trying to find it's feet with a club trying to find it's feet. It's easier to impress and get to grasp with everything quickly when you are shielded in a club where things are a bit more stabile and the squad is well settled playing together. We don't have that atm. unfortunately. 

[MarkLillis]

We have a issue when buying young players.

On the pitch they are not surrounded by the right type of senior player.

Its been happening for years...going back to Cahill and Ridgewell having form a partnership rather than being thrown in with a more senior defender.More recently this crop of players having to settle in with only the likes of Elmo,Taylor and Connor to look at when the chips are down.

I don’t even think it’s the recruiting that’s the problem.

Its the way we introduce our young players to the first team.Especially considering the toxic nature of (some) fans.

[villa4europe]

for every club that has done it better you can point at a club that has done it worse, that's football

I think we have a problem at the club for a long time that players leave us and go on to do better things whereas managers leave us to never be heard of again, that should be the opposite way round

[lexicon]

46 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

I look at players like Trossard, Tielmans, Maupay, Knockaert, all come from the french leagues,hasn't taken them long to pick up the pieces.....The Wolves lads have equally took to the Premier league very quickly.

Knockaert - signed for Leicester aged 21, had almost 100 games in English football before playing in the prem.

Tielemans - Cost 40 million pounds.

Maupay - Almost 100 games in the championship before playing in the prem. 

Trossard - Has never played in the French league but has hit the ground running. 

If you're trying to compare them to some of our acquisitions, you're not off to a good start. 

[Delphinho123]

Our recruitment, for the most part, has been woeful lately. 
I know no-one wants to hear it and I'll be lectured about how it's actually great for the money spent and the age of player brought in, but it really isnt. 

My biggest concern is that when we go down, we'll be stuck with the likes of Nakamba, Trezeguet, Wesley and El Ghazi. We won't recoup half of what we paid if someone is willing to take them off our hands and they'd all struggle in the championship. 

Can you imagine the above players playing without Grealish? It would be desperate. Can you imagine Hause and Konsa at the back without Mings? 

If Grealish is moved back into the middle against Watford, we could very well line up with a front 3 of Vassilev, Trezeguet and El Ghazi. That is absolutely shocking for the money we've spent. Even if you threw Wesley in, it wouldnt be much better.

A few are in for a shock next season if we don't survive. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Delphinho123

[Rob182]

Argument 1) WE DON'T IMPROVE PLAYERS!

Counter argument: Jack Grealish, Jed Steer and John McGinn (off the top of my head) have all improved over the last 12 months. Many of our squad haven't, but then many of our squad haven't even been with us for 6 months, so maybe we should just have some patience and see how they develop.

Argument 2) WE DON'T SPOT GOOD PLAYERS!

Counter argument: We've spotted plenty of good players. No-one wanted Mings when we loaned him. McGinn was the bargain of the century. Guilbert was a bargain for a right-back who is topping some of the stats charts for Premier League defenders. We signed a bunch of good (or 'promising') players in the summer too, but the problem, as has been said 100 times, is that we had to build a squad on a relative budget, therefore our whole squad is made up of players who can be inconsistent. Throw Trezeguet or Douglas Luiz into an established Premier League team like Burnley or Palace, and you wouldn't see half of the complaints that we see from our fanbase. Why? Because when they have an off game, they can still rely on the rest of their Premier League squad, whereas we don't have that luxury. We have a handful of genuine Premier League quality players. The rest might become genuine Prem quality, but that doesn't happen overnight.

Argument 3) WE DON'T PRODUCE OUR OWN TALENT!

Counter argument: We do. Unfortunately, the combination of chopping and changing managers, changing leagues, questionable finance management and occasionally impatient fans means that the odd player that we produce doesn't seem good enough. But I'd argue our rate of producing talent is probably in line with other lower Premier League clubs.

My answer to this whole thread @TRO, is to just have some patience. Some fans said the exact same things in our relegation season. Many of those players are now very, very good. This time round, if we go the same way, I'd hope that our (seemingly) superior owners have not allowed ridiculous release clauses into the contracts of most of our players. That's not to say we wouldn't lose a couple of players, but I believe that we'd keep 80% of our squad together, and put together a promotion push the following season, only to return with a squad more experienced in the English leagues.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Knockaert - signed for Leicester aged 21, had almost 100 games in English football before playing in the prem.

Tielemans - Cost 40 million pounds.

Maupay - Almost 100 games in the championship before playing in the prem. 

Trossard - Has never played in the French league but has hit the ground running. 

If you're trying to compare them to some of our acquisitions, you're not off to a good start. 

so ours are ok then?

Maupay also hit the ground running at Brentford and the step up has not proved to be troublesome, like some of us tend to claim..

look mention player names and a kaleidoscope of opinions are drawn....don't miss the point.

arguing the examples is deviating from the point.

I picked them at random with just superficial forethought, I am looking at our recruitment in the main.

Edited January 20, 2020 by TRO

[Rob182]

3 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Our recruitment, for the most part, has been woeful lately. 
I know no-one wants to hear it and I'll be lectured about how it's actually great for the money spent and the age of player brought in, but it really isnt. 

My biggest concern is that when we go down, we'll be stuck with the likes of Nakamba, Trezeguet, Wesley and El Ghazi. We won't recoup half of what we paid if someone is willing to take them off our hands and they'd all struggle in the championship. 

Can you imagine the above players playing without Grealish? It would be desperate. Can you imagine Hause and Konsa at the back without Mings? 

If Grealish is moved back into the middle against Watford, we could very well line up with a front 3 of Vassilev, Trezeguet and El Ghazi. That is absolutely shocking for the money we've spent. Even if you threw Wesley in, it wouldnt be much better.

A few are in for a shock next season if we don't survive. 

I think you're in for a shock. I respect your opinion, but I think you're doing a disservice to our players if you think they'd struggle in the Championship. Baggies are top of the Championship with dross like Kenneth Zohore and Matt Phillips in their first team. One of Fulham's most creative players is Josh 'float around the pitch like a crisp packet' Onomah. I have much more confidence in El Ghazi, Trezeguet and Jota than I ever had in Onomah, and Fulham are chasing the top 2.

[Delphinho123]

1 minute ago, Rob182 said:

I think you're in for a shock. I respect your opinion, but I think you're doing a disservice to our players if you think they'd struggle in the Championship. Baggies are top of the Championship with dross like Kenneth Zohore and Matt Phillips in their first team. One of Fulham's most creative players is Josh 'float around the pitch like a crisp packet' Onomah. I have much more confidence in El Ghazi, Trezeguet and Jota than I ever had in Onomah, and Fulham are chasing the top 2.

I guess we'll wait and see! As you mention Fulham, personally I think Cavaleiro, Knockeart, Mitrovic and Cairney would walk into our team, but who's to know.
I doubt El Ghazi, Jota and Trezeguet will tear up the championship though!

[lexicon]

Just now, TRO said:

so ours are ok then?

Totally different question.

FWIW, I think we're doing OK all things considered. I haven't written off any of our signings from this season and I'd say that the biggest problems are the players we haven't been able to replace yet - Hourihane, Taylor and Lansbury, for example. None signed by the current regime. 

[wilko154]

Disagree completely.

We are rebuilding at the moment, it was always going to take a couple of seasons to build the squad up to a PL side.

Unfortunately the injuries have really hurt us this season, McGinn being out has left a huge hole in the middle of the pitch that we unfortunately haven't been able to fill.

No doubt about it some of the performances from new players haven't been great, but again it was to be expected.

 

If we can stay up this season then we have a chance to bring in some real quality next season to combine with the young squad we currently have.

 

[Rob182]

Just now, Delphinho123 said:

I guess we'll wait and see! As you mention Fulham, personally I think Cavaleiro, Knockeart, Mitrovic and Cairney would walk into our team, but who's to know.
I doubt El Ghazi, Jota and Trezeguet will tear up the championship though!

Like you say, we'll wait and see. But El Ghazi has helped us to promotion once before, so I don't see why he couldn't do it again. He's up and down, I'll admit, but then when he was on his game in the Championship, he inspired us to victory a number of times.

Mitrovic would undoubtedly get into our team, because of our lack of options, but I'm not too sure on the rest you've listed. They hardly set the league alight last season, in fact, some people might argue that they did worse than our current lot are doing!

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

for every club that has done it better you can point at a club that has done it worse, that's football

I think we have a problem at the club for a long time that players leave us and go on to do better things whereas managers leave us to never be heard of again, that should be the opposite way round

I accept that....but I am ambitious for my club.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

Disagree completely.

We are rebuilding at the moment, it was always going to take a couple of seasons to build the squad up to a PL side.

Unfortunately the injuries have really hurt us this season, McGinn being out has left a huge hole in the middle of the pitch that we unfortunately haven't been able to fill.

No doubt about it some of the performances from new players haven't been great, but again it was to be expected.

 

If we can stay up this season then we have a chance to bring in some real quality next season to combine with the young squad we currently have.

 

was it?

[gwi1890]

16 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Our recruitment, for the most part, has been woeful lately. 
I know no-one wants to hear it and I'll be lectured about how it's actually great for the money spent and the age of player brought in, but it really isnt. 

My biggest concern is that when we go down, we'll be stuck with the likes of Nakamba, Trezeguet, Wesley and El Ghazi. We won't recoup half of what we paid if someone is willing to take them off our hands and they'd all struggle in the championship. 

Can you imagine the above players playing without Grealish? It would be desperate. Can you imagine Hause and Konsa at the back without Mings? 

If Grealish is moved back into the middle against Watford, we could very well line up with a front 3 of Vassilev, Trezeguet and El Ghazi. That is absolutely shocking for the money we've spent. Even if you threw Wesley in, it wouldnt be much better.

A few are in for a shock next season if we don't survive. 

At least we have a young squad if we go down and not another total rebuild , bare in mind that Solanke cost 20m , we all bang on about other teams players and how good they would be in our team someone was on about Deeney few weeks ago truth is Troy has never scored more than 10 leauge goals, but somehow hes miles better than Wesley who has 5 half way through the season? 

[terrytini]

Our recruitment and Youth production have indeed been poor for years. 

It wont get fixed overnight.

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Argument 1) WE DON'T IMPROVE PLAYERS!

Counter argument: Jack Grealish, Jed Steer and John McGinn (off the top of my head) have all improved over the last 12 months. Many of our squad haven't, but then many of our squad haven't even been with us for 6 months, so maybe we should just have some patience and see how they develop.

Argument 2) WE DON'T SPOT GOOD PLAYERS!

Counter argument: We've spotted plenty of good players. No-one wanted Mings when we loaned him. McGinn was the bargain of the century. Guilbert was a bargain for a right-back who is topping some of the stats charts for Premier League defenders. We signed a bunch of good (or 'promising') players in the summer too, but the problem, as has been said 100 times, is that we had to build a squad on a relative budget, therefore our whole squad is made up of players who can be inconsistent. Throw Trezeguet or Douglas Luiz into an established Premier League team like Burnley or Palace, and you wouldn't see half of the complaints that we see from our fanbase. Why? Because when they have an off game, they can still rely on the rest of their Premier League squad, whereas we don't have that luxury. We have a handful of genuine Premier League quality players. The rest might become genuine Prem quality, but that doesn't happen overnight.

Argument 3) WE DON'T PRODUCE OUR OWN TALENT!

Counter argument: We do. Unfortunately, the combination of chopping and changing managers, changing leagues, questionable finance management and occasionally impatient fans means that the odd player that we produce doesn't seem good enough. But I'd argue our rate of producing talent is probably in line with other lower Premier League clubs.

My answer to this whole thread @TRO, is to just have some patience. Some fans said the exact same things in our relegation season. Many of those players are now very, very good. This time round, if we go the same way, I'd hope that our (seemingly) superior owners have not allowed ridiculous release clauses into the contracts of most of our players. That's not to say we wouldn't lose a couple of players, but I believe that we'd keep 80% of our squad together, and put together a promotion push the following season, only to return with a squad more experienced in the English leagues.

• Rubbish, even Doris the tea lady wanted him.....we were all talking about a dominant CB
• I guess Courtinho was not bad bought, for c£8.5 mill  and sold for c £140 odd mill
• Guilbert, might be top of the stats, but gets caught out a lot as he did Saturday for their goal.

The patience thing is meaningless.....How can it be argued either way......so a player gets better and the argument shuts down.....a players does not improve and the argument gets washed away in the sands.

Patience is a virtue, but on its own its abstract....evidence of improvement has to be seen for patience to have a meaning.....improvement is incremental not a seismic change.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Our recruitment and Youth production have indeed been poor for years. 

It wont get fixed overnight.

I was only trying to focus on an important facet of our pursuit of betterment....and yes most of it was the past.

at least you got it Terry

[villa4europe]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept that....but I am ambitious for my club.

im sure everton fans say the same!

I think much like what's discussed in the suso thread unfortunately we'll never really know who we wanted and who we ended up with, they're 2 very different things, to which you can then ask the question as to why we aren't getting our targets, we'll also never really know if we have a player settling issue, the relegation season says yes to me but then again we're the club credited with creating this player liaison officer type role whatever its called to help angel when his wife was sick

its many issues, lots of them behind closed doors (and not helped by the gutter press and social media) so I don't think there is ever going to be an accurate definitive answer as to what we're good or poor at