Unpopular Opinions

[KentVillan]

15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

"Possibly" I could accept.

"Probably"? Nah not for me clive

I'd be open to hearing the reasoning though

I think in these entirely circumstantial cases (if we accept the possibility that the “confession note” was just the unhinged scrawlings of someone feeling the pressure of the accusations) then it’s very easy for the statistics to be presented in a way that looks incredibly damning.

The Roy Meadow cot death convictions are a good example to look back at. Or the Lucie de Berk case in the Netherlands. All overturned after several years. Both show how expert witnesses can badly mislead a jury about the likelihood of a sequence of coincidences. And we know the underfunded English legal system is capable of enormous miscarriages of justice, and that the underfunded NHS is capable of killing people without the involvement of a serial killer.

The thing that really stands out to me is that there were a whole bunch of “unexplained” deaths at the same hospital at the same time that couldn’t be linked to Letby. Nobody has explained how or why these happened… they’ve just been disregarded.

The widely repeated claim that deaths stopped suddenly when she was taken off duty is a red herring - the hospital was downgraded and stopped treating that category of patient around the same time.

She lived near the hospital and was single, so was able to work many more shifts than her colleagues. That could explain why she was on duty for more deaths than colleagues.

The techniques she used to supposedly murder the babies varied and required specialist knowledge not just about paediatrics but about forensics… it doesn’t stack up that a young nurse developed these nearly foolproof methods that baffled everyone around her by herself.

Nothing has emerged from her background or childhood that aligns with the idea that she’s a psychopath. Childhood friends say she was a nice, empathetic person who loved her job.

She may indeed be guilty, but the detailed media coverage after the verdict hasn’t really shed further light on any smoking guns. A lot of it is stuff like “I saw her hovering over a bed” or “she took an unhealthy interest in this child” … etc etc. You can make anyone look like a weirdo in this way. There’s a real lack of any definitive evidence that she killed a specific child.

Anyway, shoot it all down, I’ve probably missed something obvious… it is an unpopular opinion after all

[Paddywhack]

Horses for courses and all that but I’m the same with gigs. I think I’ve been to 2 or 3 gigs in the last 15 years and didn’t enjoy them 

I think I almost pretended to like going to them as a yoof, much like clubbing. I used to enjoy saying I’d seen a band live, but never really liked going.

Sweaty, too hot, crowds, too loud, shite beer, standing up for hours. Nah, not for me. Give me a comfy chair to sit in and watch a comedian over all that any day.

[choffer]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

If I went to a gig and it sounded just like the album, I'd feel cheated, I'd know they weren't playing live

Ray Lamontagne, Hammersmith Apollo, 2004. 
Not really my kind of thing but the album didn’t make my ears bleed and a pal was keen so I thought I’d go to keep him company. 
Stage setup was eight chairs in a semi circle. There was no support and eventually the chairs were filled by people with instruments. They tuned up for five minutes and then started the first song off the album. Then the second, then the third. They basically played the whole album in order and at the conclusion of the last, Ray mumbled a thank you into the microphone and they all shuffled off. I think it was an £80 ticket too. By a mile the most expensive gig I’d been to at that point. Never again.  

Edited September 11, 2023 by choffer

[tonyh29]

On 09/09/2023 at 15:20, Xela said:

XL Bully dogs 

Get them banned initially and then eradicate the breed. 

I think I've worked out who Xela is in the "real " world    ... 

Suella Braverman pushes for ban of 'lethal danger' XL Bully dogs

the home secretary is seeking "urgent advice" about banning American XL Bully dogs as footage shows one of the animals attacking an 11-year-old girl and a man in Birmingham.

[chrisp65]

29 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I think in these entirely circumstantial cases (if we accept the possibility that the “confession note” was just the unhinged scrawlings of someone feeling the pressure of the accusations) then it’s very easy for the statistics to be presented in a way that looks incredibly damning.

The Roy Meadow cot death convictions are a good example to look back at. Or the Lucie de Berk case in the Netherlands. All overturned after several years. Both show how expert witnesses can badly mislead a jury about the likelihood of a sequence of coincidences. And we know the underfunded English legal system is capable of enormous miscarriages of justice, and that the underfunded NHS is capable of killing people without the involvement of a serial killer.

The thing that really stands out to me is that there were a whole bunch of “unexplained” deaths at the same hospital at the same time that couldn’t be linked to Letby. Nobody has explained how or why these happened… they’ve just been disregarded.

The widely repeated claim that deaths stopped suddenly when she was taken off duty is a red herring - the hospital was downgraded and stopped treating that category of patient around the same time.

She lived near the hospital and was single, so was able to work many more shifts than her colleagues. That could explain why she was on duty for more deaths than colleagues.

The techniques she used to supposedly murder the babies varied and required specialist knowledge not just about paediatrics but about forensics… it doesn’t stack up that a young nurse developed these nearly foolproof methods that baffled everyone around her by herself.

Nothing has emerged from her background or childhood that aligns with the idea that she’s a psychopath. Childhood friends say she was a nice, empathetic person who loved her job.

She may indeed be guilty, but the detailed media coverage after the verdict hasn’t really shed further light on any smoking guns. A lot of it is stuff like “I saw her hovering over a bed” or “she took an unhealthy interest in this child” … etc etc. You can make anyone look like a weirdo in this way. There’s a real lack of any definitive evidence that she killed a specific child.

Anyway, shoot it all down, I’ve probably missed something obvious… it is an unpopular opinion after all

 

There will be weeks of evidence all day in court, we will see the reporting of the exciting bits.

From that minimal reporting people will decide x or y is ‘obviously’ guilty.

People that don’t have the attention span of a gnat, people that can’t comprehend a coherent paragraph, will decide someone is obviously this or that becuase ot a half remembered article in The Mail or on TalkShite FM.

I have no idea if she’s genuinely guilty or not. I’ve basically shipped that bit of decision making out to others. I know enough to know I don’t know all the facts and sometimes it ain’t all over at the sentencing.

It’s right to presume things are at less than 100% certainty. That doesn’t have to mean conspiracy theory.

[Davkaus]

As an aside on the Lucy Letby thing, one of the small mercies oh that horrendous case is it seems to have encouraged a closer look elsewhere at things that previously appeared to be being swept under the rug.

For 18+ months we've gone from "there's no criminal case to answer here", to "we need the internal review to finish before the police can investigate".

That internal review has not yet finished, but last week, we heard that the police have begun a criminal investigation into maternity deaths at NUH. 

Which is a shame because now I'm going to have to run all my bitching about it through a filter of "is this going to get read out in court".

Edited September 11, 2023 by Davkaus

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

I think in these entirely circumstantial cases (if we accept the possibility that the “confession note” was just the unhinged scrawlings of someone feeling the pressure of the accusations) then it’s very easy for the statistics to be presented in a way that looks incredibly damning.

The Roy Meadow cot death convictions are a good example to look back at. Or the Lucie de Berk case in the Netherlands. All overturned after several years. Both show how expert witnesses can badly mislead a jury about the likelihood of a sequence of coincidences. And we know the underfunded English legal system is capable of enormous miscarriages of justice, and that the underfunded NHS is capable of killing people without the involvement of a serial killer.

The thing that really stands out to me is that there were a whole bunch of “unexplained” deaths at the same hospital at the same time that couldn’t be linked to Letby. Nobody has explained how or why these happened… they’ve just been disregarded.

The widely repeated claim that deaths stopped suddenly when she was taken off duty is a red herring - the hospital was downgraded and stopped treating that category of patient around the same time.

She lived near the hospital and was single, so was able to work many more shifts than her colleagues. That could explain why she was on duty for more deaths than colleagues.

The techniques she used to supposedly murder the babies varied and required specialist knowledge not just about paediatrics but about forensics… it doesn’t stack up that a young nurse developed these nearly foolproof methods that baffled everyone around her by herself.

Nothing has emerged from her background or childhood that aligns with the idea that she’s a psychopath. Childhood friends say she was a nice, empathetic person who loved her job.

She may indeed be guilty, but the detailed media coverage after the verdict hasn’t really shed further light on any smoking guns. A lot of it is stuff like “I saw her hovering over a bed” or “she took an unhealthy interest in this child” … etc etc. You can make anyone look like a weirdo in this way. There’s a real lack of any definitive evidence that she killed a specific child.

Anyway, shoot it all down, I’ve probably missed something obvious… it is an unpopular opinion after all

I certainly won't shoot it down. I don't know enough about it to have a confident opinion either way. From what I'd seen it seemed obvious that she was guilty, but you do make some good points.

My suspicion with these things is that unless you're in there in the court it's hard to form a proper opinion on these things because you'll never see all of the evidence as it's laid out.

It's food for thought though

[Chindie]

From what I know of the Letby case, while there's not a smoking gun insofar as she was never caught immediately in the act, never caught with the 'weapon', she is the recurring factor in these cases (to the extent moving her shifts day to night correlates with deaths, and even her going on holiday correlates with greatly reduced incidents), she was doing very odd things with the families and acting inappropriately, and what she did isn't criminal mastermind stuff - insulin poisoning is the same thing Allitt did and has been done by various medical professionals globally and if spotted is very easy to identify, overfeeding is something any neonatal nurse would be trained on, and air embolism is famously a thing that can easily kill. The reason she got away with it for so long was a combination of the need for time to pass for a pattern to appear and the natural predisposition to trust that nurses are doing things for good, once the patterns appear she's ****.

I do have an unease with a judgement like this being made without some concrete, smoking gun evidence, but the evidence against her even without that is not weak - she's the common denominator, across a wide range of incidents that even follows her across shift changes, she has the means to do it, she was guilty of changing a record to hide her involvement with one case (iirc), her actions after the fact are bizarre and contrary to normal behaviours for her profession, including the keeping of what appears to be trophies of a sort. She is guilty.

What I don't think she is, is a psychopath. She's got mental illness, obviously suffering with depression, but she doesn't seem to have psychopathy. Which is why she's going to be studied by psychiatrists for a very long time, she doesn't fit any category very well. People will be wanting to look into her head, her background etc to try to understand what is going on. She's got bits of Munchausen by proxy, bits of narcissism, bits of hero complex, bits of imposter syndrome... but none of them in their entirety.

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

What I don't think she is, is a psychopath. She's got mental illness, obviously suffering with depression, but she doesn't seem to have psychopathy. Which is why she's going to be studied by psychiatrists for a very long time, she doesn't fit any category very well. People will be wanting to look into her head, her background etc to try to understand what is going on. She's got bits of Munchausen by proxy, bits of narcissism, bits of hero complex, bits of imposter syndrome... but none of them in their entirety.

It's an interesting comparison with Ben Field (the guy who murdered Peter Farquhar, dramatised in the BBC 'The Sixth Commandment'). He was psychologically assessed when he applied to train as a vicar, and deemed a classic psychopath. Nothing was done. 

[luckyeddie]

4 hours ago, Rich192 said:

Music concerts/gigs are rubbish. The quality is never as good as the actual album, surrounded by pissed up loud people singing along, or worse talking through each song. Difficult to get a drink, toilets are a nightmare, and it’s way too hot. 
 

I should caveat this by saying I have enjoyed some before, but usually it’s very disappointing. 

that's kicked the hornets nest. I admitted that I have never been to a gig in another thread, and you have just explained exactly what I imagined. Thank you.

[bickster]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

8th floor corner room with some lovely views of Birkenhead, £43.

Hopefully they were paying you to stay there, fancy putting windows in a Hotel that looks directly at Birken Vasey

[Chindie]

25 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

It's an interesting comparison with Ben Field (the guy who murdered Peter Farquhar, dramatised in the BBC 'The Sixth Commandment'). He was psychologically assessed when he applied to train as a vicar, and deemed a classic psychopath. Nothing was done. 

There's a difficulty in 'dealing' with psychopaths. You can be a psychopath and be able to function in society without representing a threat. You aren't going to be 'a good person' but you aren't inherently going to be a murderer in waiting because you're a psychopath.

It's also not really treatable. There's no medicine or treatment that can 'cure' being a psychopath, and the condition itself tends to lead the individual to push back against attempts to treat it. So you get left with giving treatments and medications to control things like aggression where the individual has been shown to be violent etc.

[blandy]

4 hours ago, bickster said:

There are plenty of venues I just won't go to, the Whoever is Sponsoring it this Year Arena in Liverpool for one

That's where we saw Echo and the Bunnymean one time, right?

[bickster]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

That's where we saw Echo and the Bunnymean one time, right?

Yep, dreadful place. I think that was only one of two gigs I've been to there

[Xela]

3 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

I think I've worked out who Xela is in the "real " world    ... 

 

 

I'm glad my position as advisor to the Government is finally being recognised. 

 

[rjw63]

5 hours ago, Rich192 said:

Music concerts/gigs are rubbish. The quality is never as good as the actual album, surrounded by pissed up loud people singing along, or worse talking through each song. Difficult to get a drink, toilets are a nightmare, and it’s way too hot. 
 

I should caveat this by saying I have enjoyed some before, but usually it’s very disappointing. 

Some gigs really are as good or better than the album, although I agree with you in the other punters, some never STFU and it makes you wonder why they spent the money if they’re not going to **** listen.

[blandy]

6 hours ago, Rich192 said:

Music concerts/gigs are rubbish. The quality is never as good as the actual album, surrounded by pissed up loud people singing along, or worse talking through each song. Difficult to get a drink, toilets are a nightmare, and it’s way too hot. 
 

I should caveat this by saying I have enjoyed some before, but usually it’s very disappointing. 

If you're looking for absolutely exceptional, Hi-Fi type quality of sound, you can get it - the types of venues specifically designed and built for musical concerts - like the Symphony hall, or Bridgewater hall in Manchester - the sound is amazing. And then with playing a CD at home, you don't get the light show - seeing Pink Floyd Live say was (obviously) completely different to listening to a CD. And you'll never get the sheer feeling of a bass guitar or drums actually moving your body at a big gig by playing an LP.

Or to make an analogy - most football games are rubbish - the TV viewer gets a better view of what's going on, and they're not surrounded by pissed up people, yakking and swearing and you struggle to get a drink in the ground and the toilets are a nightmare....

[Davkaus]

I'm usually too busy watching out for crowdsurfers and stray elbows to be worrying about the sound quality

Edited September 11, 2023 by Davkaus

[Seat68]

I used to go and see Billy Bragg a fair amount, he was and I assume, is, solid live. Songs were great, picked the right set list, but in-between songs, patter, that's what you payed your money for. Well not really but that was what set him apart from his contemporaries. 

[mjmooney]

17 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I used to go and see Billy Bragg a fair amount, he was and I assume, is, solid live. Songs were great, picked the right set list, but in-between songs, patter, that's what you payed your money for. Well not really but that was what set him apart from his contemporaries. 

Billy Bragg is to me what Bob Dylan is to (I assume) most of you: I really like his songwriting, but I can't stand his voice.