The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said:

I think that's the problem

A lot of people see taxes as a type of punishment, rather than something essential to keep a country running

Torys offer lower taxes 

For some people it's as simple as do I prefer to have £100 less each month through increased taxes and cost of produce in return for a new hospital on the other side of the country in 2026 and waiting 2 hours in A&E rather than 4 hours.

When people really struggle for money, the choice is easy.

[Vive_La_Villa]

40 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I would be very surprised if 70%+ of the reason for changing to Tory isn't anti-migrant.  Very surprised.

You might be right but it doesn’t make all those people racist or Xenophobic A lot probably want to see tighter controls. 

Inevitably you will get the racists voting too. 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

What??

You appear to have taken wishful thinking to a whole new level, Mark.

I know. It is the only tiny thread of hope I can cling on to though.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by markavfc40

[Vive_La_Villa]

Just now, Mic09 said:

For some people it's as simple as do I prefer to have £100 less each month through increased taxes and cost of produce in return for a new hospital on the other side of the country in 2026 and waiting 2 hours in A&E rather than 4 hours.

When people really struggle for money, the choice is easy.

Or the money goes to Frank who has no intention of finding a job but gets a free house and money because he apparently he can’t find one.  Whilst I work my ass off but extra taken off me for Franks house. 

Now I’m not for a second saying it would be this way under Labour but unfortunately this is the simplistic perception for many. 

[Sam-AVFC]

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

For some people it's as simple as do I prefer to have £100 less each month through increased taxes and cost of produce in return for a new hospital on the other side of the country in 2026 and waiting 2 hours in A&E rather than 4 hours.

When people really struggle for money, the choice is easy.

No one in the tax band that Labour proposed increases in is objectively struggling for money.

[Dodgyknees]

Brexit, just saw it - the mindset.

My train is delayed, we get to Westbury and are told to cross over to get a train which has been held. People pushing past people, I look behind and a little old lady is struggling with her suitcase, ignored. Nobody cares about the person struggling, they want to be first on that train. So I walk back and carry her bags (and mine ) as well as pull her suitcase, then get on the train and I call out asking for a seat.

I'm now standing near the doors on a packed train with a weird man stroking my left leg.

Brexit.

Edited December 13, 2019 by avfcDJ

[rubberman]

1 hour ago, Dom_Wren said:

So as a citizen, but not resident (been out the country for more than 15 years, so couldn't vote!), Was this ultimately a brexit vote? My friend back home says that People not taking to Corbyn was as a big a reason?

And if it was a brexit thing, was brexit basically an immigration vote?

Can't find the article right now, but there was a survey showing no1 reason was disliking Corbyn, no2 reason was not believing the labour manifesto promises, no3 was labour's brexit position.

[bobzy]

7 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

For some people it's as simple as do I prefer to have £100 less each month through increased taxes and cost of produce in return for a new hospital on the other side of the country in 2026 and waiting 2 hours in A&E rather than 4 hours.

When people really struggle for money, the choice is easy.

The people struggling wouldn’t have been hit. 

[Mic09]

14 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

No one in the tax band that Labour proposed increases in is objectively struggling for money.

No. Their bosses will. And Corbyn is right with one thing, they are greedy.

And despite what he wants people to believe, the bosses don't swim in money like Scrooge McDuck, but they run businesses and invest it. Because they will be hit by taxes, they will simply increase the prices of their produce that poorer people buy. They need to keep their profits up.

It's seen in EVERY socialist country - prices of everyday things go up. 

That new Landrover that your boss is driving is not gonna pay for itself. It's usually those worse off that will pay for it.

[rubberman]

29 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Proportional rep is definitely a fair method.  Just wondering, how would the seats be distributed?  Would each party just be given a number of seats to fill as they choose?

Depends on the method of PR.  Most common is the Party List (as in EU elections) - each party has a list of candidates ranked in order proposed before the election.  As you get enough of the vote you work your way down the list.  Voters will know who the major players are so can see who is likely to be elected.

If it's Single Transferable Vote, it's a more complicated system  It works for (bigger) constituencies.  There are usually multiple candidates from the big parties and independents. Voters rank all the candidates and when the top one has enough votes, the rest of the votes for that candidate go to the second choices until a 2nd one has enough votes and so on until the right number of representatives for the area are filled.  So as a voter you could rank a LD 1st, a Tory 2nd, Independent 3rd OR LD 1st, LD 2nd, LD 3rd.  You end up with a representative set of candidates for each constituency.

 

[Dodgyknees]

17 minutes ago, rubberman said:

Can't find the article right now, but there was a survey showing no1 reason was disliking Corbyn, no2 reason was not believing the labour manifesto promises, no3 was labour's brexit position.

And a lot of that comes from the broken media and their failure to talk about the manifesto in a way which people can understand. Whereas the uncosted Tory manifesto was promoted as a positive for the country.

Brexit, yep, sadly Labour should have campaigned for Brexit, against what centrists wanted (I wanted remain) that's how hard it is.

[snowychap]

5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Because they will be hit by taxes, they will simply increase the prices of their produce that poorer people buy.

It is not as simple as that.

[PaulC]

Shambles from Labour. Corbyn was the wrong man to lead the party. The manifesto was like going back to the 70s. The pension payments for women born in the 1950s was sexist. Ultimately this election was a 2nd referendum though and Brexit won hands down.

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

No. Their bosses will. And Corbyn is right with one thing, they are greedy.

And despite what he wants people to believe, the bosses don't swim in money like Scrooge McDuck, but they run businesses and invest it. Because they will be hit by taxes, they will simply increase the prices of their produce that poorer people buy. They need to keep their profits up.

It's seen in EVERY socialist country - prices of everyday things go up. 

That new Landrover that your boss is driving is not gonna pay for itself. It's usually those worse off that will pay for it.

I know what you’re saying, there is a crude line you can draw in banana republics where this happens.

But the opposite is also true, we have a country here where the bankers and bosses royally screwed up. To get them out of a hole, we froze wages, reduced benefits, switched off the street lights, sacked 15,000 police and closed the libraries.

The boss will always need a new Range Rover and if you just let him, he’ll have two and once he has two he’ll need a bigger garage. Meanwhile, people haven’t had a pay rise in a decade.

 

[snowychap]

From the New Statesman:

Quote

The Conservatives will use their triumph to ruthlessly reshape British democracy

Electoral law, the legal system and parliament itself will all be reformed to the Conservatives’ advantage.

...

The most immediate and obvious consequence is that the UK will now leave the EU. Forty seven years after it began under a Conservative government, Britain’s formal engagement with the European project will end. Boris Johnson’s Brexit will not be the “soft” variety that some liberals hoped for: the UK will leave the single market and the customs union, ending the free movement of people.

The result is also a vindication of Johnson’s abandonment of Osbornite austerity and his embrace of what one could call reactionary Keynesianism.

...

But no one should believe that the Conservatives’ ambitions will be limited to Brexit and to higher spending in targeted areas. The Tories, who have long craved a victory of this kind, will use their majority to reshape British democracy. Their aim will be to entrench Conservative hegemony for a generation.

...

In the UK, liberals have watched in horror as as Donald Trump has trampled on the norms of US democracy. But the disturbing truth is that the UK is still more vulnerable to authoritarianism. Britain’s centralised political model, its unwritten constitution and its antiquated electoral system are all gifts to the incumbent government. A British prime minister — provided they have a majority in the House of Commons — is almost unrivalled in their power in Europe.

...rest of piece on link

'The People's Government' is now in charge and they will leave no stone unturned in their desire for revenge for the last six months and more.

Edited December 13, 2019 by snowychap

[Sam-AVFC]

7 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

No. Their bosses will. And Corbyn is right with one thing, they are greedy.

And despite what he wants people to believe, the bosses don't swim in money like Scrooge McDuck, but they run businesses and invest it. Because they will be hit by taxes, they will simply increase the prices of their produce that poorer people buy. They need to keep their profits up.

It's seen in EVERY socialist country - prices of everyday things go up.

Not all of them. I’ll shortly be touching that tax band and fully believe I should pay more tax. Sure it’s anecdotal, but not every small business owner only thinks about numero uno. Minimum wage increasing and zero hour contracts being abolished would also make it impossible for them to push employees earnings down.

I appreciate you won’t agree with the above as you say prices will increase, but are there actually any statistical examples of this? You can say somewhere like Venezuela, but I’m interested in an example that doesn’t have 100s of other things **** up their economy. The example only works if prices have gone up and standard of living actually decreases.

[Mic09]

11 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Not all of them. I’ll shortly be touching that tax band and fully believe I should pay more tax. Sure it’s anecdotal, but not every small business owner only thinks about numero uno. Minimum wage increasing and zero hour contracts being abolished would also make it impossible for them to push employees earnings down.

I appreciate you won’t agree with the above as you say prices will increase, but are there actually any statistical examples of this? You can say somewhere like Venezuela, but I’m interested in an example that doesn’t have 100s of other things **** up their economy. The example only works if prices have gone up and standard of living actually decreases.

100% agree, I know it's not all people. I will try to reply to you later (haven't got time for a long post but I like a good discussion ) but I guess it's two ways of looking at it.

You prefer to pay more tax - I prefer to pay less tax and employ someone so they can have a job and I can improve my business. And I won't bleed them for 50hours a week and minimal wage like many hard left wingers want you to believe. I want to give them good benefits and pay, because if I don't they will go and work for someone else. 

[Awol]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

Yes - that has to change - but with the fruitier elements having a vote on such a change - don't see that changing soon.

Exactly. The political battle of the next few years will be between moderates and extremists within the Labour movement. The question is whether enough of the former remain  to actually pull it off. 

[Sam-AVFC]

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

100% agree, I know it's not all people. I will try to reply to you later (haven't got time for a long post but I like a good discussion ) but I guess it's two ways of looking at it.

You prefer to pay more tax - I prefer to pay less tax and employ someone so they can have a job and I can improve my business. And I won't bleed them for 50hours a week and minimal wage like many hard left wingers want you to believe. I want to give them good benefits and pay, because if I don't they will go and work for someone else. 

Appreciate that - I genuinely want to engage so look forward to your answer.

What we definitely agree on is that a hell of a lot of people are greedy which is why I personally don’t trust free market forces to help with equality even though there are conscious business owners like yourself out there.

[Newry_Villan]

So for the first time since the disaster of partition the north of Ireland has elected a majority of nationalist candidates. The tide is changing up here. The DUP have done more for Irish unity in the last 3 years than republicans could ever have dreamed of over the last 100 years.