Douglas Luiz

[lexicon]

52 minutes ago, TRO said:

because I have seen one version of Dougie more than the other...hence my view.

I don't understand what a "Modern defensive midfielder/playmaker" is......for me, its just a DM and if you secure a quality one they can orchestrate forward play anyway.....if you have a modest quality one, they generally display limitaions.

but I didn't say "its unlikely" I said " I am not as convinced as VLV".....I also said " I will be delighted if he returns back to that form"

but may I respectfully ask  " what makes you think he will return to that form"?

I am not sure what you mean by Villa Talk Worlds of strongest DM Championship......There are other players in the Premier League who we are competing against and they have defensive midfielders we can appraise and compare....its not an unusual thing to do.

You clearly have a slightly different view to me on the player, but that fine, its your opinion as it is mine.....I just want to see a bit more from him.

 

Yeah, we know Been trying to tell you that for a bloody year or so 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

17 hours ago, TRO said:

I have been watching football for too many years to remember, and its still hard to know, what is the right set up, blimey even Pep got it wrong when it mattered....so many factors emerging from a game are ubiquitous, hence hard to follow, fans follow what they are naturally drawn to, and assume everyone else is wired like them.

The line " you must be watching a different game".....do you know what? we are, through our own lens....that's why IMO it's great to hear what other folks think,afterwards.

I am not wholly convinced on formations, because they morph as the dynamics of the game naturally change, anyway.....I am more influenced by work levels and intensity, sure an overload is an extra pair of feet, so it helps, but it means leaving a gap elsewhere.....thats where football intelligence kicks in, another factor for us to compute.

I am not sure on the Ross Barkley theory, but for sure, if players are not engaging in the contact of the game, opponents, will love that and subsequently steal the initiative, by exploiting space abandoned.

I do think in terms of development Villa still have to catch up with their ability without the ball to their ability with the ball.....I am far less concerned, when we have the ball, than when we haven't.....that should come, as we rise up the table.

I am not a fan, who thinks you can overload a team with attacking players or defensive players and expect to do much......the key balance between the 2 is paramount for me, to progress.

We all try different things to reach the holy grail, I don't think we should get too hung up on differences...trial and error is still alive and kicking.

 

You know we have been pretty much on the same page Re: CDM gate all along.

However, I saw a poster make some interesting points the other day, which got me thinking he could be onto something.

He said Deano wants our forward line to be so intensely pressing and retaining the ball higher up the pitch, that the need for a " traditional CDM " is pretty obsolete in the system.

The main job of our CMs would/could then be to recycle the ball and start play/attacks without the pressure of being rampaged regularly.

In theory I get the point, however the success of that would require all our forwards doing their parts consistently.

It would also require our CMs to play very Intelligently. Obviously, having top notch CM performances is crucial to the success of this system as well, so we'll just have to see/hope they can pull it off.

When fully fit, I'm hoping our forward lines gives teams so much to think about that they'll be dragged all over the place and fall back.

[Vive_La_Villa]

30 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You know we have been pretty much on the same page Re: CDM gate all along.

However, I saw a poster make some interesting points the other day, which got me thinking he could be onto something.

He said Deano wants our forward line to be so intensely pressing and retaining the ball higher up the pitch, that the need for a " traditional CDM " is pretty obsolete in the system.

The main job of our CMs would/could then be to recycle the ball and start play/attacks without the pressure of being rampaged regularly.

In theory I get the point, however the success of that would require all our forwards doing their parts consistently.

It would also require our CMs to play very Intelligently. Obviously, having top notch CM performances is crucial to the success of this system as well, so we'll just have to see/hope they can pull it off.

When fully fit, I'm hoping our forward lines gives teams so much to think about that they'll be dragged all over the place and fall back.

I’ve already noticed a difference with how Buendia presses.  He is a nuisance to defenders that try to play out with the ball. 

[alreadyexists]

34 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You know we have been pretty much on the same page Re: CDM gate all along.

However, I saw a poster make some interesting points the other day, which got me thinking he could be onto something.

He said Deano wants our forward line to be so intensely pressing and retaining the ball higher up the pitch, that the need for a " traditional CDM " is pretty obsolete in the system.

The main job of our CMs would/could then be to recycle the ball and start play/attacks without the pressure of being rampaged regularly.

In theory I get the point, however the success of that would require all our forwards doing their parts consistently.

It would also require our CMs to play very Intelligently. Obviously, having top notch CM performances is crucial to the success of this system as well, so we'll just have to see/hope they can pull it off.

When fully fit, I'm hoping our forward lines gives teams so much to think about that they'll be dragged all over the place and fall back.

It’s an interesting one. I would also say that if our CMs lose the ball then the opposition  are essentially through to our CB pairing as the wing backs are usually up the pitch to retain the ball in wide areas. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You know we have been pretty much on the same page Re: CDM gate all along.

However, I saw a poster make some interesting points the other day, which got me thinking he could be onto something.

He said Deano wants our forward line to be so intensely pressing and retaining the ball higher up the pitch, that the need for a " traditional CDM " is pretty obsolete in the system.

The main job of our CMs would/could then be to recycle the ball and start play/attacks without the pressure of being rampaged regularly.

In theory I get the point, however the success of that would require all our forwards doing their parts consistently.

It would also require our CMs to play very Intelligently. Obviously, having top notch CM performances is crucial to the success of this system as well, so we'll just have to see/hope they can pull it off.

When fully fit, I'm hoping our forward lines gives teams so much to think about that they'll be dragged all over the place and fall back.

JV.....I have always said I have a strong opinion until someone else has a stronger one and I will listen.

what you are proposing makes sense and I am all ears, if thats what Dean wants to do?....I love attacking football, who doesn't?......but in practice a more cautious approach needs to be made, particularly, when up against a better team on paper...and in this league their is a fair few.

but, as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating......If Dean wants to play an attacking format and have centre midfielders as more of a playmaker style fine.....but I say, don't come crying when we concede goals.

If Dean wants to approach games by out gunning the opposition, I can clearly see an exciting format, but will it be a winning format, only time will tell.

We all have to remember, if we haven't got the ball all the swashbuckling forward play comes to nothing....you have to have the ball for that to work, and then you have to retain it for decent periods of the game.

I am still not sure what a traditional or modern day CDM is.....I just know what a CDM is and the teams that I see at the upper end of the league, seem to cope with it fine.

lets just say for a minute, there is such a thing as a modern day CDM......Its not about HOW he plays, its more about what he does.....He has to help stop marauding raiders threatening our goal, quite frankly, I have no hang up about CDM's as long as some player stops the opposition, no matter what they call him, I just bang the drum for one, just for that reason and for reference.

If Dean can replicate the 15 clean sheets again and trim a few goals of the goals against column, my CDM case will be redundant.....but the 64 million dollar question is, can we do it ,with the approach you are suggesting?

we will see.

 

[TRO]

12 hours ago, lexicon said:

Yeah, we know Been trying to tell you that for a bloody year or so 

maybe you haven't been explaining well enough.

so for the want of a reasonable debate.....is Rice and phillips modern day defensive midfielders.....is Ndidi one or Bissouma?

what is the prime function of one?

At the end of the day...its all about winning games and securing points and to do that you have to score more goals than you concede to have a chance......how we set up, will be judged on the results.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

12 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

But you have seen the potential? 

Somebody like Pirlo, as the obvious example, reinvented the role. Michael Carrick might be another with a different style, but also clear departure from the 'old days'. You don't have to be a snarling, beast of a man to play the position. If you can read the game, close passing lanes and are athletic enough to intercept the ball or shepherd the opponent into a disadvantageous position, that can be enough from a defensive standpoint if you are good enough in other areas of the game. Hence the 'playmaker' part. 

In terms of quality, if we can find the next Roy Keane then please, be my guest. But I think we need to be a tad more realistic about where we are. The good Luiz is more than good enough for that. 

Because he sustained the kind of form I would expect for near on 30 games. 

Dave, can you please let me know where you have managed to glean that from my posts?

I have never intimated such a thing.

what you have described is precisely what I want, too.

but the bottom line, is stopping the oppostion, if that requires blowing kisses to him, fine.

We can all have our interpretations on what kind of player we want, but yes I am well aware that the Billy Bremmner, Johnny Giles days have past and I accept Vinnie Jones, is not what we want or aspire to.....but I do think my comments have been misconstrued.

When I say "beef" up the midfield, i am referring to protecting the 2 centre backs like Rice and Phillips try to do for England.

Edited September 3, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’ve already noticed a difference with how Buendia presses.  He is a nuisance to defenders that try to play out with the ball. 

Me too, and it is a welcome sight....one of the reasons I gave him MOTM in the last game, not just his beautiful strike.

[lexicon]

55 minutes ago, TRO said:

maybe you haven't been explaining well enough.

so for the want of a reasonable debate.....is Rice and phillips modern day defensive midfielders.....is Ndidi one of Bissouma?

what is the prime function of one?

At the end of the day...its all about winning games and securing points and to do that you have to score more goals than you concede to have a chance......how we set up, will be judged on the results.

 

I guess the point is that there isn't one prime function because the way we play seems to be more about sharing the load - particularly when it comes to pressing.

The roles of each of those players is also dictated by the other players around them and how they complement their style or share the work. If we look at Rice, Phillips and Ndidi - they're actually all different types of player. Ndidi basically acts as a sweeper (but in front of the CBs) and keeps things very simple with his passing. Both he and Phillips do a lot more defensive work than Rice, for example, but Rice offers a lot more progression of play, like a more traditional CM. Phillips slots in between the two - he's got very good positioning and puts in a lot of work, but he's also not the most mobile player out there either. That said, the whole Leeds team presses like holy hell, so he's got a lot of help. 

Douglas is probably closest to Phillips in terms of the role he does - he's a more mobile player and more comfortable on the ball, but less physical and less of a ball winner. 

For Douglas, he needs someone to share the workload in the midfield and help with the transitional side of things - a traditional do-it-all CM who is very fit and works hard - Sanson should be perfect for that role and Ramsey's looked capable since he's come on too. McGinn leaves the team wanting as he doesn't press enough, whereas Nakamba offers the pressing/defensive side but not the progression we need. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by lexicon

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I guess the point is that there isn't one prime function because the way we play seems to be more about sharing the load - particularly when it comes to pressing.

The roles of each of those players is also dictated by the other players around them and how they complement their style or share the work. If we look at Rice, Phillips and Ndidi - they're actually all different types of player. Ndidi basically acts as a sweeper (but in front of the CBs) and keeps things very simple with his passing. Both he and Phillips do a lot more defensive work than Rice, for example, but Rice offers a lot more progression of play, like a more traditional CM. Phillips slots in between the two - he's got very good positioning and puts in a lot of work, but he's also not the most mobile player out there either. That said, the whole Leeds team presses like holy hell, so he's got a lot of help. 

Douglas is probably closest to Phillips in terms of the role he does - he's a more mobile player and more comfortable on the ball, but less physical and less of a ball winner. 

For Douglas, he needs someone to share the workload in the midfield and help with the transitional side of things - a traditional do-it-all CM who is very fit and works hard - Sanson should be perfect for that role and Ramsey's looked capable since he's come on too. McGinn leaves the team wanting as he doesn't press enough, whereas Nakamba offers the pressing/defensive side but not the progression we need. 

 

 

Well at least, I can understand your thinking....and thanks for explaining....if many more think like you, I can now understand the stand point.

Whether it's a case that indeed, I have struggled to explain my position on Dougie, I think we are closer to a common thought.....I agree, Dougie does need a contrasting type next to him, to create the balance.

I still think, whoever we look for the responsibility, we do allow teams to come through us too easily on occasions.

However....At the end of the day its all about results and how we play, or set up, will be reflective of that.

[lexicon]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well at least, I can understand your thinking....and thanks for explaining....if many more think like you, I can now understand the stand point.

Whether it's a case that indeed, I have struggled to explain my position on Dougie, I think we are closer to a common thought.....I agree, Dougie does need a contrasting type next to him, to create the balance.

I still think, whoever we look for the responsibility, we do allow teams to come through us too easily on occasions.

However....At the end of the day its all about results and how we play, or set up, will be reflective of that.

True, although I think that is generally due to how Smith wants us to play - more attacking/on the front foot rather than the focus being defensively solid. Given our good defensive record last season, it's not like it's a massive problem either. I kind of get the impression that, for better or worse, he doesn't want to play with an Ndidi type for the most part.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, lexicon said:

True, although I think that is generally due to how Smith wants us to play - more attacking/on the front foot rather than the focus being defensively solid. Given our good defensive record last season, it's not like it's a massive problem either. I kind of get the impression that, for better or worse, he doesn't want to play with an Ndidi type for the most part.

I am resigning to that suggestion too.....well if he takes us to where we want to go, I don't care.

thanks for explaining/responding

[lexicon]

41 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am resigning to that suggestion too.....well if he takes us to where we want to go, I don't care.

thanks for explaining/responding

 No worries TRO - always happy to have a civil discussion

[villalad21]

Just because you press from the front doesn't in any shape or form devalues the importance of a DM.

If it does then why do Man City and Liverpool deploy Rodri and Fabinho? I'm sure they could find better equipped so called "Deep lying playmakers"

Whatever you think about defending from the front or whatever there will always be moments in a game where the opposition puts you under pressure, and you need midfielders well equipped dealing with that.

This is just an example. But twice last season Luiz caused a penalty against United, against the same guy. Pogba is a big and powerful guy and Luiz is not the man for me we should have to depend on to handle that profile of player. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by villalad21

[KentVillan]

People talk about height a lot, but it's not really that important for a CDM. Fernandinho is 5'10. Makelele 5'9.

What matters more is physicality, and that's where I think Dougie does need to improve - physically bulking up a bit.

But that will likely happen over the next 2-3 years, just as we've seen with other players in the squad (compare Grealish at 23 with Grealish at 25 for example). Once Dougie's developed that physical strength, I think he'll look more like the CDM people want.

 

[villalad21]

25 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

People talk about height a lot, but it's not really that important for a CDM. Fernandinho is 5'10. Makelele 5'9.

What matters more is physicality, and that's where I think Dougie does need to improve - physically bulking up a bit.

But that will likely happen over the next 2-3 years, just as we've seen with other players in the squad (compare Grealish at 23 with Grealish at 25 for example). Once Dougie's developed that physical strength, I think he'll look more like the CDM people want.

 

Yes but those players you are referring to tend to be very rare.

Much easier finding that taller version.

Kante, Fernandinho etc as amazing as they are. They're not easy to find. Most DM's tends to be tall.

[VillanousOne]

45 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

People talk about height a lot, but it's not really that important for a CDM. Fernandinho is 5'10. Makelele 5'9.

What matters more is physicality, and that's where I think Dougie does need to improve - physically bulking up a bit.

But that will likely happen over the next 2-3 years, just as we've seen with other players in the squad (compare Grealish at 23 with Grealish at 25 for example). Once Dougie's developed that physical strength, I think he'll look more like the CDM people want.

 

we do lack height all over the pitch, we get bullied on set pieces by teams with bigger players, even against Brentford who have more height.

not saying the DM has to be the one to win balls in the air, but we need some players who can do that.

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

He's working on it.

[PaulC]

On 02/09/2021 at 18:18, TRO said:

I am not a fan, who thinks you can overload a team with attacking players or defensive players and expect to do much......the key balance between the 2 is paramount for me, to progress.

Yes you have to get the balance right. I think Smith overloads the team at times with too many attacking players whearas the England manager is the opposite, I'd rather the former though. 

[andym]

4 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Yes but those players you are referring to tend to be very rare.

Much easier finding that taller version.

Kante, Fernandinho etc as amazing as they are. They're not easy to find. Most DM's tends to be tall.

Look at the DM's who are actually any good at the better teams and there's plenty below 6ft; e.g. Kimmich = 5ft 10, Brozovic = 5ft 11 (and very skinny),  Frenkie De Jong = 5ft 11, Idrissa Gueye = 5ft 9, Kante = 5ft 6, Jorginho 5ft 11, Fernandinho 5ft 11.

Of those regularly mentioned on here, at Leicester Ndidi is 6ft, Tielemans is 5ft 9. Kalvin Phillips at Leeds is 5ft 10. Boubacar Kamara who was constantly mentioned in the transfer thread is 5ft 10. Allan at Everton is 5ft 8.

Go back a few years and you have the likes of Makelele, Mascherano etc (both 5ft 9)

Seems to me there's majority of the better DM's are not actually noticeably tall, because the main trait they need is to be mobile. The ones who happen to be taller and may lack that mobility (Busquets etc) make up for it with incredible positioning and the ability to control the tempo.