Douglas Luiz

[Killeen30]

4 hours ago, CarryOnVilla said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTUbS5Cj5Px

he’s happy to be here 

might suggest a new contract is coming 

Just as I thought! Going from his social media posts he always seems happy to be at Villa.

[TRO]

30 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It’s not like he’s never done it. Was the best defensive midfield we’ve had in years post lockdown 2 seasons ago. 

I might not go that far......but he was our best player imo....during that spell and that includes Jack.

[a m ole]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

One of my theories is that Shakespeare wants us to try a more compact 4-4-2 with a hard working midfield 4.

In that shape you'd have two of Buendia/Bailey/Traore/Young/JPB as hardworking wide mids providing a lot of defensive support, you'd also have both strikers (especially Watkins) doing a lot of tracking back. (You can even have one of the strikers drop back wide to make it a 4-5-1 defensively).

Then for the middle 2, that box-to-box role is probably the natural position for McGinn, Sanson, and (by some people's reckoning) Dougie. Chuk also looks like a natural 8.

Maybe opinions of our centre mids will change as we see them doing more of a box-to-box role, instead of fixed defensive/attacking roles in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-1.

I know there's a school of thought that 4-4-2 doesn't work anymore, but it's been used quite successfully by teams like Leicester and Atletico Madrid in recent years as a defensively solid counter-attacking shape.

The big issue for Luiz last season (IMO) was Ross Barkley. I also think our tactic of running everything through Grealish left Luiz ignored in space quite a lot. Put him with a busier midfield and I think it's a different proposition.

I think our best way of getting Watkins and Ings in the same side working well is 4-1-2-1-2 or the ‘diamond’.

Luiz controlling and recycling the ball, 2 of McGinn, Sanson, Ramsey and Chuk in the 8 positions, Buendia in the 10 as a free role to pop up in both ‘half spaces’ and the two strikers switching between playing the middle and the back post. The 8s and Luiz hold down between the two areas, full backs provide width with support from the 8s and the front 3 do what they’re best at, while also being some of the hardest working forwards in the league. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I might not go that far......but he was our best player imo....during that spell and that includes Jack.

Ok maybe I got carried away there but he was our best player at a time we were good as relegated and thats at the age of 21. Lads got a very high ceiling imo. Even as a DM. 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Ok maybe I got carried away there but he was our best player at a time we were good as relegated and thats at the age of 21. Lads got a very high ceiling imo. Even as a DM. 

I'm not as conviced as you.....but nothing would please me more, than to see him return to that form.

I think there is more chance of him doing that, than Marv adding ball playing skills to his armoury.

[Killeen30]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I'm not as conviced as you.....but nothing would please me more, than to see him return to that form.

I think there is more chance of him doing that, than Marv adding ball playing skills to his armoury.

Yeah I think Nakamba has reached his ceiling.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I'm not as conviced as you.....but nothing would please me more, than to see him return to that form.

I think there is more chance of him doing that, than Marv adding ball playing skills to his armoury.

Why do you think it's unlikely? 

His form during project restart was phenomenal, he showed that he not only had the athletic ability to succeed in the Premier League playing in a deeper role in midfield, but his reading of the game was exceptional. He's never going to compete in the VillaTalk Worlds Strongest DM Championships™, but it didn't matter. He was the base upon which we built our survival, the bridge between defence and attack, he was everything you could want in a modern defensive midfielder/playmaker. He then started last season very well. As time wore on there were still questions over his consistency, but there was still an awful lot of flapping about a potential bid from Manchester City in January. 

Then the wheels fell off. He still went to the Copa America with Brazil and won an Olympic Gold medal. But there's no denying the fact his form post-covid was poor enough that it lost him his place to Marvelous Nakamba. 

But I suppose what I don't understand is, why are you more convinced by one version of Douglas Luiz than the other? 

Edited September 2, 2021 by dont_do_it_doug.

[villalad21]

36 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Why do you think it's unlikely? 

His form during project restart was phenomenal, he showed that he not only had the athletic ability to succeed in the Premier League playing in a deeper role in midfield, but his reading of the game was exceptional. He's never going to compete in the VillaTalk Worlds Strongest DM Championships™, but it didn't matter. He was the base upon which we built our survival, the bridge between defence and attack, he was everything you could want in a modern defensive midfielder/playmaker. He then started last season very well. As time wore on there were still questions over his consistency, but there was still an awful lot of flapping about a potential bid from Manchester City in January. 

Then the wheels fell off. He still went to the Copa America with Brazil and won an Olympic Gold medal. But there's no denying the fact his form post-covid was poor enough that it lost him his place to Marvelous Nakamba. 

But I suppose what I don't understand is, why are you more convinced by one version of Douglas Luiz than the other? 

I think that period of time was very specific. 

Players weren't match fit. 

 No fans which means a less pressured environment. 

Slower tempo than usual as a result of players not being fit. 

It was basically like a pre season but you could get points out of it. I think a player like Dougie massively benefitted from the slower tempo.

This is just my opinion granted. Take it how you want. 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by villalad21

[WHY]

33 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Why do you think it's unlikely? 

His form during project restart was phenomenal, he showed that he not only had the athletic ability to succeed in the Premier League playing in a deeper role in midfield, but his reading of the game was exceptional. He's never going to compete in the VillaTalk Worlds Strongest DM Championships™, but it didn't matter. He was the base upon which we built our survival, the bridge between defence and attack, he was everything you could want in a modern defensive midfielder/playmaker. He then started last season very well. As time wore on there were still questions over his consistency, but there was still an awful lot of flapping about a potential bid from Manchester City in January. 

Then the wheels fell off. He still went to the Copa America with Brazil and won an Olympic Gold medal. But there's no denying the fact his form post-covid was poor enough that it lost him his place to Marvelous Nakamba. 

But I suppose what I don't understand is, why are you more convinced by one version of Douglas Luiz than the other? 

I stopped reading at phenomenal. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

8 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I think that period of time was very specific. 

Players weren't match fit. 

 No fans which means a less pressured environment. 

Slower tempo than usual as a result of players not being fit. 

It was basically like a pre season but you could get points out of it. I think a player like Dougie massively benefitted from the slower tempo.

This is just my opinion granted. Take it how you want. 

 

These are valid points. However they don't all span across the seasons, so are we saying it's purely a mental thing down to playing in front of fans? Because of so, that's fixable. The Luiz of the start of last season was an asset, a player more than good enough to finish in a European spot. We saw a flicker of that form on Saturday just gone. 

I'm not saying he doesn't need fixing, or that his form from January onwards was good enough for where we want to be. It is quite rightly now or never, but I'm not as surprised as some that the club haven't given up on him yet. 

[mikeyp102]

Hopefully signs a new contract soon 

[stegzy]

I think he’s great as a DM with 2 other midfielder ahead of him but doesn’t work in a 2. If there is enough quality around him he will be great in the quarterback role, waiting in deep space to take off defenders and start attacks.

[JPJCB]

My big problem with him over the last 9 months or so is that he hasn’t been ambitious enough with his passing. He’s decent enough at defending (if a little clumsy) but previously at his best he stood out in the DM role compared to our other options because of his passing ability.
 

My favourite goal of last season was the second goal vs Arsenal away where luiz pinged a beautiful stretching pass to Barkley to volley for Watkins headed finish. For me, luiz hasn’t been doing enough of that type of passing the past 9 months or so- it’s mainly been short obvious passes which means he doesn’t stand out so much 

[peterw]

I think he'll have a great season for us. He's getting stronger, wiser, and better at his job. He's more of an interceptor than a tackler , surprisingly good in the air, skilful, and can pick a pass. he's what? 22? 23? plenty of time to develop and when he's fully up to match speed I think he'll be identified as one of our major players by next May.

[TRO]

12 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Why do you think it's unlikely? 

His form during project restart was phenomenal, he showed that he not only had the athletic ability to succeed in the Premier League playing in a deeper role in midfield, but his reading of the game was exceptional. He's never going to compete in the VillaTalk Worlds Strongest DM Championships™, but it didn't matter. He was the base upon which we built our survival, the bridge between defence and attack, he was everything you could want in a modern defensive midfielder/playmaker. He then started last season very well. As time wore on there were still questions over his consistency, but there was still an awful lot of flapping about a potential bid from Manchester City in January. 

Then the wheels fell off. He still went to the Copa America with Brazil and won an Olympic Gold medal. But there's no denying the fact his form post-covid was poor enough that it lost him his place to Marvelous Nakamba. 

But I suppose what I don't understand is, why are you more convinced by one version of Douglas Luiz than the other? 

because I have seen one version of Dougie more than the other...hence my view.

I don't understand what a "Modern defensive midfielder/playmaker" is......for me, its just a DM and if you secure a quality one they can orchestrate forward play anyway.....if you have a modest quality one, they generally display limitaions.

but I didn't say "its unlikely" I said " I am not as convinced as VLV".....I also said " I will be delighted if he returns back to that form"

but may I respectfully ask  " what makes you think he will return to that form"?

I am not sure what you mean by Villa Talk Worlds of strongest DM Championship......There are other players in the Premier League who we are competing against and they have defensive midfielders we can appraise and compare....its not an unusual thing to do.

You clearly have a slightly different view to me on the player, but that fine, its your opinion as it is mine.....I just want to see a bit more from him.

 

[Tomaszk]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

because I have seen one version of Dougie more than the other...hence my view.

I don't understand what a "Modern defensive midfielder/playmaker" is......for me, its just a DM and if you secure a quality one they can orchestrate forward play anyway.....if you have a modest quality one, they generally display limitaions.

but I didn't say "its unlikely" I said " I am not as convinced as VLV".....I also said " I will be delighted if he returns back to that form"

but may I respectfully ask  " what makes you think he will return to that form"?

I am not sure what you mean by Villa Talk Worlds of strongest DM Championship......There are other players in the Premier League who we are competing against and they have defensive midfielders we can appraise and compare....its not an unusual thing to do.

You clearly have a slightly different view to me on the player, but that fine, its your opinion as it is mine.....I just want to see a bit more from him.

 

Do you think players improve going from age 21/22/23 to 26/27/28?

I think they do.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Do you think players improve going from age 21/22/23 to 26/27/28?

I think they do.

sometimes they do, sometimes they plateau and less often they go backwards.

In Dougies case, I hope he he goes forward....because the team will too.

[Tomaszk]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

sometimes they do, sometimes they plateau and less often they go backwards.

In Dougies case, I hope he he goes forward....because the team will too.

I would say roughly 75% of players are comfortably better at 27 than 22. Odds look good.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I think he’s got a great career ahead and he’ll also be a top DM.  I also think some fans will never be convinced he can play that position well. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

because I have seen one version of Dougie more than the other...hence my view.

But you have seen the potential? 

Quote

I don't understand what a "Modern defensive midfielder/playmaker" is......for me, its just a DM and if you secure a quality one they can orchestrate forward play anyway.....if you have a modest quality one, they generally display limitaions.

Somebody like Pirlo, as the obvious example, reinvented the role. Michael Carrick might be another with a different style, but also clear departure from the 'old days'. You don't have to be a snarling, beast of a man to play the position. If you can read the game, close passing lanes and are athletic enough to intercept the ball or shepherd the opponent into a disadvantageous position, that can be enough from a defensive standpoint if you are good enough in other areas of the game. Hence the 'playmaker' part. 

In terms of quality, if we can find the next Roy Keane then please, be my guest. But I think we need to be a tad more realistic about where we are. The good Luiz is more than good enough for that. 

Quote

but may I respectfully ask  " what makes you think he will return to that form"?

Because he sustained the kind of form I would expect for near on 30 games.