Douglas Luiz

[lexicon]

On 02/12/2020 at 21:29, TRO said:

ok...perhaps he needs to show it  a bit more.

No, TRO, he doesn't. 

Good defending doesn't require overt acts of aggression - it's about positioning, movement,  and anticipation. He has all of these things - he reads the game and stops things before they become a problem. 

You don't need a blood and guts 'pashun' lunatic running around. 

[Mic09]

What I like about him is that whether the attack is from the left, right or through the middle, he seems to be in that area ready to intercept and make it difficult for the opposition. 

Sometimes he needs to be more decisive (Brighton first goal) but he knows very well what to do in that position.

[Dave-R]

8 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

Billing is shit. Of we were going to sign any of the relegated midfield doucore was the choice player. Instead we should be looking at bundesliga or Ligue 1 players. Thinking about it the record for very good DMs from Ligue 1 is very good. Gueye, Kante and Mendy (the Leicester one) all came from Ligue 1. And there are quite a few good ones in there right now. 

I was talking about a cheap physical player who will wear the opposition down.

We wont be able to spend much money in January most likely so someone like him would of done till the summer.

[Dave-R]

3 hours ago, lexicon said:

No, TRO, he doesn't. 

Good defending doesn't require overt acts of aggression - it's about positioning, movement,  and anticipation. He has all of these things - he reads the game and stops things before they become a problem. 

You don't need a blood and guts 'pashun' lunatic running around. 

Well i for one vote for Frank Castle if were going blood and guts route, I heard hes not doing anything since Netflix arnt making a new season and hes to much of a Violent psycho for Disney+

Edited December 4, 2020 by Dave-R

[TRO]

5 hours ago, lexicon said:

No, TRO, he doesn't. 

Good defending doesn't require overt acts of aggression - it's about positioning, movement,  and anticipation. He has all of these things - he reads the game and stops things before they become a problem. 

You don't need a blood and guts 'pashun' lunatic running around. 

I don't entirely disagree with your sentiment....but I disagree with your interpretation of the application of a player I seek.

We are too open through the middle at times( do you accept that?)....The defensive midfield has to take responsibility for that.....How they do it, is their business, I don't much care how its done....my concern is, if it continues.

controlled aggression, is a crucial part of the game.....dismiss it as you please and dress it up to support your narrative as head less chickens running around taking pot shots at things that move......that is far from what I am saying.

I am just not as convinced as you and some others of Doug's ability to stop the opposition, with the regularity we need......I don't think he is a bad player at all( but that covers so many things), do I think he shows sufficient aggression in close quarters?, no I don't......does he show the sort of presence that I' looking for in a DM, not really.....That could mean a few things...1 he is still learning,only 22 or  ( However as an example young Conor Gallagher was making himself busy for WBA the other night, really made his presence felt.) 2. He is not a DM, in its natural form.

I think your description of what I am looking for is over exaggerted, hence the likely hood to disagree......Des Bremner, was not such a player as you have described, but a young modern one of those would do fine for me.

 

[lexicon]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't entirely disagree with your sentiment....but I disagree with your interpretation of the application of a player I seek.

We are too open through the middle at times( do you accept that?)....The defensive midfield has to take responsibility for that.....How they do it, is their business, I don't much care how its done....my concern is, if it continues.

controlled aggression, is a crucial part of the game.....dismiss it as you please and dress it up to support your narrative as head less chickens running around taking pot shots at things that move......that is far from what I am saying.

I am just not as convinced as you and some others of Doug's ability to stop the opposition, with the regularity we need......I don't think he is a bad player at all( but that covers so many things), do I think he shows sufficient aggression in close quarters?, no I don't......does he show the sort of presence that I' looking for in a DM, not really.....That could mean a few things...1 he is still learning,only 22 or  ( However as an example young Conor Gallagher was making himself busy for WBA the other night, really made his presence felt.) 2. He is not a DM, in its natural form.

I think your description of what I am looking for is over exaggerted, hence the likely hood to disagree......Des Bremner, was not such a player as you have described, but a young modern one of those would do fine for me.

 

I didn't mean to misrepresent your view, so apologies if it came across that way - it more just painting a picture if that makes any sense. 

Personally, I don't think we struggle through the middle, no. I think defensively, our issues are two-fold - 1) concentration in our third of the pitch, especially when we've been attacking for a long spell and the defenders have pushed up a little too far - 2) Cash is targeted because he's new to the league and not totally confident defending. If we take the Benrahma goal as an example, he was indecisive about his positioning, pulled in a little too central, and then didn't stop the cross coming in. It seems to me that teams get a relative amount of joy attacking us down the flanks rather than through the middle. 

 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I didn't mean to misrepresent your view, so apologies if it came across that way - it more just painting a picture if that makes any sense. 

Personally, I don't think we struggle through the middle, no. I think defensively, our issues are two-fold - 1) concentration in our third of the pitch, especially when we've been attacking for a long spell and the defenders have pushed up a little too far - 2) Cash is targeted because he's new to the league and not totally confident defending. If we take the Benrahma goal as an example, he was indecisive about his positioning, pulled in a little too central, and then didn't stop the cross coming in. It seems to me that teams get a relative amount of joy attacking us down the flanks rather than through the middle. 

 

I agree with that as well.....good points.

May I explain my position.....I sometimes raise a point like the one I just have about a DM, with presence.....but that doesn't mean that is the only thing that concerns me, it just means that is the only thing I am talking about at the time.

The reason, I am so passionate about the DM role......is becuase I made such a pigs ear of my analytical opinion of it when watching Villa in the 70's & 80's.....I was so focused on the ball players, I failed to see the importance of those that negated the opposition.

I accept the game has changed....it changes continuously it always has, its a dynamic business, everyone in the last 100 years is looking for an edge or an advantage over the opposition, that will always be the case.

I recognise, that in my attempts to get to the forensics of a defeat, some folk think I am dismissive of the impressive football we have mustered to get to the fabulous results we have so far...its not the case, its just merely discussing one subject at a time.

I don't think there is a villa fan alive that appreciates Jack Grealish as much as me, so swashbuckling football seduces me too....but I still get labelled as a Steve Bruce merchant....just because, I mention the virtues of good defending.

I love the football Dean presides over and his natural tendency to attack.....but it has to come with balance.....I make no hidden fact, I hate villa losing and I equally accept some of our fans are better equipped with dealing with that than me.

We  made a super start and I don't want to see it wasted.....a couple of draws, in place of defeats, would have put a different complexion on things for me.....but hey ho.....we all see things the way we do, part of the fascination, i guess.

 

[lexicon]

39 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree with that as well.....good points.

May I explain my position.....I sometimes raise a point like the one I just have about a DM, with presence.....but that doesn't mean that is the only thing that concerns me, it just means that is the only thing I am talking about at the time.

The reason, I am so passionate about the DM role......is becuase I made such a pigs ear of my analytical opinion of it when watching Villa in the 70's & 80's.....I was so focused on the ball players, I failed to see the importance of those that negated the opposition.

I accept the game has changed....it changes continuously it always has, its a dynamic business, everyone in the last 100 years is looking for an edge or an advantage over the opposition, that will always be the case.

I recognise, that in my attempts to get to the forensics of a defeat, some folk think I am dismissive of the impressive football we have mustered to get to the fabulous results we have so far...its not the case, its just merely discussing one subject at a time.

I don't think there is a villa fan alive that appreciates Jack Grealish as much as me, so swashbuckling football seduces me too....but I still get labelled as a Steve Bruce merchant....just because, I mention the virtues of good defending.

I love the football Dean presides over and his natural tendency to attack.....but it has to come with balance.....I make no hidden fact, I hate villa losing and I equally accept some of our fans are better equipped with dealing with that than me.

We  made a super start and I don't want to see it wasted.....a couple of draws, in place of defeats, would have put a different complexion on things for me.....but hey ho.....we all see things the way we do, part of the fascination, i guess.

 

I've always enjoyed the defensive side of the game and grew up watching Football Italia on Channel 4 back in the day - Maldini for me was THE defender and he once said - 'If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake', and I really subscribe to that idea. 

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I've always enjoyed the defensive side of the game and grew up watching Football Italia on Channel 4 back in the day - Maldini for me was THE defender and he once said - 'If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake', and I really subscribe to that idea. 

and I too endorse that completely.

The quote I most like is from Vicente del Bosque when asked About DM's and their role....He said " When you watch Barcelona, you don't notice Busquets.....but when you watch Busquets, you see the whole game"

I just couldn't put it any better.

[YouUnastanFren]

17 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I've always enjoyed the defensive side of the game and grew up watching Football Italia on Channel 4 back in the day - Maldini for me was THE defender and he once said - 'If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake', and I really subscribe to that idea. 

This is a nice sound bite but it's not really true I don't think. Having a player dribbling towards you does not require you to have made a mistake and tackling him in not an admission of one in my eyes.

Growing up with GOD playing for my local team will always make me enjoy good defending but tackling is a key part of that, not an emergency measure when 'real defending' fails.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

This is a nice sound bite but it's not really true I don't think. Having a player dribbling towards you does not require you to have made a mistake and tackling him in not an admission of one in my eyes.

Growing up with GOD playing for my local team will always make me enjoy good defending but tackling is a key part of that, not an emergency measure when 'real defending' fails.

you make a good point....we are in danger of rewriting the game.....I too marvel at the skills of Good defenders Macca was just the pinacle for me , that one season, probably the best CB in world football at the time.

Making assaults on players is not the same as tackling, tackling hard but fair, is an art......I do get the point Lexicon is making though , Stan Petrov was a classic at interceptions and as Ron Atkinson again described him as the " Pick Pocket".....it doesn't matter HOW its done, what matters is its Done.

Stopping the opposition is a crucial part of the game and just lately, we have been sruggling with it.

Edited December 4, 2020 by TRO

[Zatman]

I cant remember a team passing through the middle to tear us apart. Leeds and Liverpool went down the wings, Southampton mainly set pieces and 3 of the 4 goals vs Brighton and West Ham were from crosses

Not sure how any of this is against Luiz defensive play

[Keyblade]

14 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I cant remember a team passing through the middle to tear us apart. Leeds and Liverpool went down the wings, Southampton mainly set pieces and 3 of the 4 goals vs Brighton and West Ham were from crosses

Not sure how any of this is against Luiz defensive play

People just see his small stature and technical ability and just assume he's not good defensively. He's a wall in there. Hardly anything gets by him, and when it does he's usually clever enough to tactically foul, and he seems to be getting away with it without getting booked often too. He seems to do it all without tackling or intercepting too much. Just being in the right place and sort of bodying players off the ball. It's quite unique, but evidently effective.

[Vive_La_Villa]

9 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

People just see his small stature and technical ability and just assume he's not good defensively. He's a wall in there. Hardly anything gets by him, and when it does he's usually clever enough to tactically foul, and he seems to be getting away with it without getting booked often too. He seems to do it all without tackling or intercepting too much. Just being in the right place and sort of bodying players off the ball. It's quite unique, but evidently effective.

Yeh I agree with this.
 

it’s interesting how differently people see games. It’s sometimes like an opinion has been formed of a player and it doesn’t change regardless of how they actually play. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

29 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I cant remember a team passing through the middle to tear us apart. Leeds and Liverpool went down the wings, Southampton mainly set pieces and 3 of the 4 goals vs Brighton and West Ham were from crosses

Not sure how any of this is against Luiz defensive play

He was a fault for Brighton’s second as he should have been covering there. I think it was quite evident he was shattered in that game after International duty. Especially second half. 

[Laughable Chimp]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

People just see his small stature and technical ability and just assume he's not good defensively. He's a wall in there. Hardly anything gets by him, and when it does he's usually clever enough to tactically foul, and he seems to be getting away with it without getting booked often too. He seems to do it all without tackling or intercepting too much. Just being in the right place and sort of bodying players off the ball. It's quite unique, but evidently effective.

i think he's tackling and interception stats are bad because he's just bad at defending. I don't see how you can be in the right place and body players off the ball yet not have it reflect in your tackling and interception statistics. I've certainly rarely noticed him bodying players off the ball as you've said. 

I really don't see him as a DM at all. He's just not that kind of player. 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

i think he's tackling and interception stats are bad because he's just bad at defending. I don't see how you can be in the right place and body players off the ball yet not have it reflect in your tackling and interception statistics. I've certainly rarely noticed him bodying players off the ball as you've said.

 

I don't know what constitutes as a tackle for stats to be honest. He does this thing similar to McGinn where he just gets his body in front of the player and reclaims the ball without really touching it. I don't know how that's measured. Actually, this season he's kind of cut down on that and seems to be happier sheparding the ball/player out wide and letting the fullbacks deal with it. All that to say, he seems to be the reason why we rarely get done through the middle.

[Rightdm00]

25 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

i think he's tackling and interception stats are bad because he's just bad at defending. I don't see how you can be in the right place and body players off the ball yet not have it reflect in your tackling and interception statistics. I've certainly rarely noticed him bodying players off the ball as you've said. 

I really don't see him as a DM at all. He's just not that kind of player. 

 

 

Who said his tackling and interceptions stats were poor. He's 2nd on the team in interceptions and 4th in tackles. 

As others have mentioned if he isn't a good DM then why are we worried about ManC activating the buy back. I swear I can never get a handle on this thread. 

[Tomaszk]

Fantastic player, especially for his age.

Played almost every minute this season.

The only players younger than him with anything like that position in a squad are Trent Alexander-Arnold, Declan Rice and Dwight McNeil.

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Tomaszk

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Keyblade said:

People just see his small stature and technical ability and just assume he's not good defensively. He's a wall in there. Hardly anything gets by him, and when it does he's usually clever enough to tactically foul, and he seems to be getting away with it without getting booked often too. He seems to do it all without tackling or intercepting too much. Just being in the right place and sort of bodying players off the ball. It's quite unique, but evidently effective.

He was at fault for the first free Kick that Ward Prowse converted....His tackle was with out precision, just threw himself in, not the skill set of a seasoned defender.....its just one example......when he was playing with Nakamba that partnership was broken up too. He lost his duel with Lallana that resulted in a pass the Wellbeck that resulted in a goal.....Its not in my imagination.

I have seen play by pass him and not get picked up, you can only marshal so much.....but I don't want this to turn in to a character assasination of the kid , because that is not my intention.....just highlighting you are missing stuff.

We are light in midfield.