Follyfoot Posted July 6, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Davkaus said: I bet they always speak the lingo when they rock up in Magaluf and tell Pedro they want uno fish and chips. No need to, they will only frequent English establishments with pictures of the Queen mother on the wall next to a large display of world banknotes. They will be run by dodgy Essex types who only serve Sunday Roasts, the full English in a morning with curry nights Monday, Wednesday and Friday, (non of that 'foreign muck') karaoke on a Thursday and Saturday whilst forming life long friendships with other English couples that end the moment they get on the plane back to Luton, oh and Happy Hour six till seven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 6, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2020 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: clearly the potential in a movement to force change cannot be realised if a critical mass of its supporters are only supportive of its aims in theory, but reject ideas for change. This is true. I'd say that any movement to force change that goes down the route of "smash the system" is pretty much doomed to failure. A movement that has a particular aim and manages to put that across well has a good chance - so "BLM" as a clear message for equality is a terrific starting point. Given that it was (and still largely) is a disparate, but massively widespread groundswell opinion and shout for change, where a small group of people kind of ride on the back of that sentiment and start imposing their particular "smash the system" solution, they're potentially undermining the original cause, even if they don't mean or want to. If a critical mass of supporters do not support its aims, once they get to specifics, then it's doomed. So on the specifics by trying to read-across US solutions (in their view) they make a big mistake. For example "Defund the Police" is not (and is obviously not) a practical solution for the UK. The two systems are massively different. The US tools up their Police with practically military grade equipment and weaponry, exotically funding large parts of that at state level . The UK has a largely unarmed, more centrally (under) funded system. So the situations are necessarily completely different. Or in short it's no good having ideas for change that will be rejected. When the majority start on your side, it's really important not to lose them with mis-steps on solutions. I don't expect anyone expects BLM to have all the answers. They don't need to. There's millions out there (here) who can influence and lead and push genuine change. Use that, don't propose "radical" left (or right) wing off the shelf policies from the song books. It doesn't work. It loses people. Always. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: Looks good for 36. Bardzo dobrze 8/10 WB 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Xela said: Looks good for 36. Bardzo dobrze 8/10 WB czy 'dobrze wygląda' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 4 hours ago, blandy said: This is true. I'd say that any movement to force change that goes down the route of "smash the system" is pretty much doomed to failure. A movement that has a particular aim and manages to put that across well has a good chance - so "BLM" as a clear message for equality is a terrific starting point. Given that it was (and still largely) is a disparate, but massively widespread groundswell opinion and shout for change, where a small group of people kind of ride on the back of that sentiment and start imposing their particular "smash the system" solution, they're potentially undermining the original cause, even if they don't mean or want to. If a critical mass of supporters do not support its aims, once they get to specifics, then it's doomed. So on the specifics by trying to read-across US solutions (in their view) they make a big mistake. For example "Defund the Police" is not (and is obviously not) a practical solution for the UK. The two systems are massively different. The US tools up their Police with practically military grade equipment and weaponry, exotically funding large parts of that at state level . The UK has a largely unarmed, more centrally (under) funded system. So the situations are necessarily completely different. Or in short it's no good having ideas for change that will be rejected. When the majority start on your side, it's really important not to lose them with mis-steps on solutions. I don't expect anyone expects BLM to have all the answers. They don't need to. There's millions out there (here) who can influence and lead and push genuine change. Use that, don't propose "radical" left (or right) wing off the shelf policies from the song books. It doesn't work. It loses people. Always. What specifically do you want to see changed? It is one thing to 'take the knee' but this is just a gesture of support, but for what? What exactly needs to change? ( please don't say 'everything '). Be specific. VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 01/07/2020 at 18:49, Graham t said: Here's a thought.... If a Premier player had decided he simply did not believe in the political objectives of BLM and had refused to wear that shirt with the BLM motif would he... Be sacked by his club Attacked in the street by people who felt insulted by his stance or allowed freedom of choice... 'Regards' VLD. I see F1 were happy to allow drivers to 'take a knee' or not, depending on their own point of view.... Refreshing to see in our do as I do / pc /thought police world...... VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Graham t said: I see F1 were happy to allow drivers to 'take a knee' or not, depending on their own point of view.... Refreshing to see in our do as I do / pc /thought police world...... VLD. Has any organisation so far has tried to overrule people making their own decision on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 6, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, Graham t said: I see F1 were happy to allow drivers to 'take a knee' or not, depending on their own point of view.... Refreshing to see in our do as I do / pc /thought police world...... VLD. Why make this shit up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, Graham t said: I see F1 were happy to allow drivers to 'take a knee' or not, depending on their own point of view.... Refreshing to see in our do as I do / pc /thought police world...... VLD. Look, if the people you play golf with are insisting that you do things on your knees, you can always just find other people to play with. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 6, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2020 23 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Look, if the people you play golf with are insisting that you do things on your knees, you can always just find other people to play with. Oh come on, just playing golf at 75 is a feat in itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Oh come on, just playing golf at 75 is a feat in itself I don't mind being old, I would be more worried if I was stupid........ VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisVillan Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 20 minutes ago, Graham t said: I don't mind being old, I would be more worried if I was stupid........ VLD. How would you know? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 9 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: Racism? Not really, but tied to this feeling of British (English) exceptionalism The state of people thinking like this. A Group of Poles will speak Polish regardless of whether they're in Poland, England or Azerbaijan. It’s another incident that has cost someone their job today but there is no evidence from the video that the “speak English” part happened is there ? ... I mean you can put drunk white girl plus Wetherspoons together and come to a conclusion, which it seems a lot of people have , but shouldn’t we wait for the whole picture to emerge before we start tagging people on social media and ruining lives ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 The story feels like a very easy fit for everyone. The spoons racist, the tabloid, the innocent key worker in the lacy bra. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 7, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 7, 2020 11 hours ago, Graham t said: What specifically do you want to see changed? It is one thing to 'take the knee' but this is just a gesture of support, but for what? What exactly needs to change? ( please don't say 'everything '). Be specific. If I may say so, you’ve completely missed the point I was making. It was nothing to do with what I want, and everything to do with what BLM “leaders” said they want and the impact it has when a protest group ventures away from the original unifying message off into extremist overtly political territory. But I’ll answer your question anyway. I’d like it to be so that people are not discriminated against, or for, because of their skin colour or race. I want people to treat others as they themselves would wish to be treated. And that’s not how it is right now in far too many cases and aspects of life. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: If I may say so, you’ve completely missed the point I was making. It was nothing to do with what I want, and everything to do with what BLM “leaders” said they want and the impact it has when a protest group ventures away from the original unifying message off into extremist overtly political territory. But I’ll answer your question anyway. I’d like it to be so that people are not discriminated against, or for, because of their skin colour or race. I want people to treat others as they themselves would wish to be treated. And that’s not how it is right now in far too many cases and aspects of life. I'm with you 100%, and a well thought out post that is far better explained than I could manage. You are particularly observant regarding how people with far left/right views are twisting what is required to reach a very necessary goal. As I have mentioned , we wouldn't even need legislation if people would simply act in a reasonable way and teach their children accordingly, that has to be the nub of the issue surely ( for all colours and faiths ). VLD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 12 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said: Has any organisation so far has tried to overrule people making their own decision on this? Hi Sam, I mentioned this simply to illustrate my point regarding 'free expression '. Lewis wanted all the F1 drivers to ' take the knee'. Some said that they didn't feel 'comfortable ' doing this. Lewis then said ' they showed a lack of understanding ' on the issue ( which was inaccurate and insinuated they might not be sympathetic to oppressed black people ). My point was/is that they simply wanted to express their opinion in a different way, and should do so ( which they did). Sorry for the long winded reply but I hope you can see my point know. VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, Graham t said: sympathetic to oppressed black people It's comments like this that suggest a lack of understanding. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 7, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Graham t said: Hi Sam, I mentioned this simply to illustrate my point regarding 'free expression '. Lewis wanted all the F1 drivers to ' take the knee'. Some said that they didn't feel 'comfortable ' doing this. Lewis then said ' they showed a lack of understanding ' on the issue ( which was inaccurate and insinuated they might not be sympathetic to oppressed black people ). My point was/is that they simply wanted to express their opinion in a different way, and should do so ( which they did). Sorry for the long winded reply but I hope you can see my point know. VLD. Nobody has been forced to take a knee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Nobody has been forced to take a knee Hi , Are you purposely misunderstanding my posts ( it is making you look a bit childish, if you don't mind me saying ), REGARDS, VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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