Racism Part two

[Sam-AVFC]

2 hours ago, Graham t said:

But it can be overcome, just ask £36 million a year Lewis Hamilton for example.....On formula one....

Bernie Ecclestone on Lewis Hamilton facing racism. Interview from the last couple of weeks.

Quote

“Never. never needed to. I’m surprised that he has believed that people … well he knows people have been against him because he’s said they have. [But] I’m surprised that it concerns him even.

“I didn’t know he had [been subjected to racism through the years]. If he has – I’m surprised.

I’m really unhappy if he took it seriously. I never thought he did. I didn’t think it affected him.“I think I did [discuss it] behind the scenes a little bit. What else could you really do?”

What was your point again?

Edited July 5, 2020 by Sam-AVFC

[Graham t]

22 minutes ago, blandy said:

It shouldn't have to be "overcome". Some people manage to prosper financially, or career wise despite racism, sure. But being rich or having a good job doesn't "overcome" racism. The racism is still there, the attitudes are still there. Wealth or success might diminish the prejudice directly faced by an individual, but it doesn't change the minds of the racists and in some cases it makes them even more strident in their views or more self denying about their racism.

Agreed, good post, thank you.......

VLD.

[Graham t]

Just now, Sam-AVFC said:

Bernie Ecclestone on Lewis Hamilton facing weekend from the last couple of weeks:

What was your point again?

I said it could be overcome, not that it wasn't there. Please read the post again. Not much point posting if you don't read ( or understand )the original post.

VLD.

[Sam-AVFC]

9 minutes ago, Graham t said:

I said it could be overcome, not that it wasn't there. Please read the post again. Not much point posting if you don't read ( or understand )the original post.

VLD.

Oh, I read it. You used F1 as an example of a sport where racism can be overcome. I reminded you of a very high profile event with Lewis Hamilton where fans dressed up as monkeys. As recently as this month Bernie Ecclestone denied any knowledge of this incident. I'm not sure he has fully 'overcome' it if the sports big boss doesn't even care enough to remember this incident.

I still don't really know what the point is of saying 'it can be overcome' anyway. It means nothing, it's completely vapid.

Charles Ignatius Sancho, a well respected member of the arts community and the 1st black man to vote in this country, overcame racism. Slavery still wasn't made illegal in this country until 30 years after his death.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Sam-AVFC

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, Graham t said:

Yes there is racism in the U.K., no doubt about it. But it can be overcome, just ask £36 million a year Lewis Hamilton for example.

 

I think the point is that people shouldn’t have to ‘overcome’ racism. Being able to point at some rich or popular or successful black people isn’t really much of a counter to the everyday racism, prejudice and loaded dice that many people experience.

I wouldn’t want to suggest Diane Abbott has overcome racism, or Barack Obama has overcome racism, or footballers have overcome racism. 

It suggests people need to just ‘man up’ and they’ll be ok. Which is utterly wrong. It hints at an accusation of people wallowing in victimhood and needing the assistance of others just to get bye like the white folks around them. More about having the right mental attitude.

Personally, I don’t buy in to that one.

 

[Graham t]

Thanks Sam, a good post. The reason I don't think it is invalid to say that racism can be overcome by its victims is that I don't believe that racism will ever truly disappear. It is a state of mind and of course it is already illegal. It is up to all of us to try to educate all around us as in some cases it is insidious. That is why I come on here and discuss it, we all should.

If ,like me ,you believe that some people will never change their vile beliefs then I think that it is fair to suggest that all people of all colours and faiths should be encouraged to stand up for themselves as we support them. This does not mean simply complaining that they are victims, we know they are, but to try to overcome these issues themselves. I have never said this is easy but obviously many people do this already. I was brought up in a house where nobody could use the word ' can't ' when faced with a difficult situation that needed resolving.

UTV.

VLD.

[snowychap]

15 minutes ago, Graham t said:

in some cases it is insidious

Indeed it is, indeed it is.

[bickster]

Somebody seems to have made amazing progress whilst making absolutely no progress at all. All the same its an amazing transformation

[mjmooney]

Quote

Berlin’s public transport company BVG said on Saturday that completing the renaming of a city centre metro station with a name based on a derogatory word for black people will take until the end of the year.

Mohrenstrasse metro station literally means Moor Street, using the medieval term for people from North Africa.

Link

Birmingham next? 

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Link

Birmingham next? 

Nah Moor St Station is named after Myra Hindley's favourite place

More seriously though, it was used derogatively in certain parts of Europe for various groupings of BAME people though not in Britain as far as I'm aware, we only used the word in that sense to describe the people that invaded Span and Malta etc in the Middle Ages. Elsewhere in Europe they refered to Ceylon Moors etc which is probably what they are meaning here

[HanoiVillan]

Quite a good article IMO on the differences between protest and change, with regards to the BLM movement:

 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Quite a good article IMO on the differences between protest and change, with regards to the BLM movement:

I think it misses the reason for the shift, personally. It's easy and clearly "just" for people to support racial equality. it's a simple message and a justified cause.

The "political" BLM movement, as opposed to the groundswell of people protesting against injustice, is different. It has talked in confusing and contradictory terms about defund the police, smash capitalism etc. That's rather more "niche" - some will agree, others disagree. I mean suppose (unlikely as it seems) a right wing political "BLM" movement was tweeting out the same mix of desire for people to be treated fairly, but also tweeting about "smashing socialist waste" or "more funding for the police to arrest troublemakers" or whatever - I know it's a daft analogy, but the point is once a campaign gets mired in a particular political take as well as the core "value" of equality of treatment for Black and minority people it will automatically lose a chunk of society.

[Davkaus]

I think a lot of people heard "Black Lives Matter", thought, "yeah, absolutely", and got on board without examining their positions.

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Davkaus

[HanoiVillan]

27 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think it misses the reason for the shift, personally. It's easy and clearly "just" for people to support racial equality. it's a simple message and a justified cause.

The "political" BLM movement, as opposed to the groundswell of people protesting against injustice, is different. It has talked in confusing and contradictory terms about defund the police, smash capitalism etc. That's rather more "niche" - some will agree, others disagree. I mean suppose (unlikely as it seems) a right wing political "BLM" movement was tweeting out the same mix of desire for people to be treated fairly, but also tweeting about "smashing socialist waste" or "more funding for the police to arrest troublemakers" or whatever - I know it's a daft analogy, but the point is once a campaign gets mired in a particular political take as well as the core "value" of equality of treatment for Black and minority people it will automatically lose a chunk of society.

What I like about the piece is that it asks the reader questions, rather than telling them what to do. I have some sympathy for your arguments in this paragraph, but she addresses exactly this move: 'Everyone applauds a movement for social justice until it “goes too far” – when it starts making “unreasonable demands” in the service of its “political agenda” . . . “Defund the police”? How about we come up with a less provocative slogan, for a start? These Black Lives Matter protesters, they don’t make things easy for themselves, do they?'

It's easy for us to say that we would like a different racial justice movement that talked about different things, or even just emphasised different things. The problem is we don't have that hypothetical one, we have this one. Everyone can decide whether to agree and how much to agree with demands as they arise, and you're right that some will agree and some won't, but clearly the potential in a movement to force change cannot be realised if a critical mass of its supporters are only supportive of its aims in theory,  but reject ideas for change. How each individual navigates that fact is up to them, but we need to remember it when making our decisions.

[chrisp65]

I’m not sure BLM have set positions, in that they deliberately don’t have a set command structure or hierarchy.

It’s one thing that they appear to have taken from the Black Panther history, if there is a clear command structure then that structure can be disrupted and infiltrated.

As an organisation, they are happy for others to take the name and the broad cause and set up totally independent chapters, anywhere.

If they are ok with that, then there is no central creed. More a desire to get the general message out there, that all reasonable people can get on board with.

I don’t believe any Southampton footballer took the knee yesterday in the hope it will lead to defunding and dismantling the Minnesota Police Department.

 

[StefanAVFC]

Racism? Not really, but tied to this feeling of British (English) exceptionalism

The state of people thinking like this. A Group of Poles will speak Polish regardless of whether they're in Poland, England or Azerbaijan. 

[Follyfoot]

7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Racism? Not really, but tied to this feeling of British (English) exceptionalism

The state of people thinking like this. A Group of Poles will speak Polish regardless of whether they're in Poland, England or Azerbaijan. 

Really missed the pubs not being open, obviously lathered and spoiling for confrontation 

[Davkaus]

28 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

The state of people thinking like this. A Group of Poles will speak Polish regardless of whether they're in Poland, England or Azerbaijan. 

I bet they always speak the lingo when they rock up in Magaluf and tell Pedro they want uno fish and chips.

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I bet they always speak the lingo when they rock up in Magaluf and tell Pedro they want uno fish and chips.

Oi! Oi! Donde esta the gravyo?

Gravy? Gravy? EL GRAVYO!

**** ‘ell, you people. No I do not want mayonnaise. Bisto, por favor grassy arse.

 

 

 

 

 

[bickster]

47 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

The state of Wetherspoons Customers thinking like this. A Group of Poles will speak Polish regardless of whether they're in Poland, England or Azerbaijan. 

FTFY