Dean Smith

[Keyblade]

9 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

According to raw numbers, how we compare to other sides this season.

Be good to see it first four v last two. Or maybe in games we win v games we don't win in a few weeks time. Does feel like we're swinging to opposite ends of the performance spectrum without hanging round in the middle too much.

I think attacking-wise at least, we've been as potent as we've ever been this season against Saints. Real threat going forward, and we had 3 goals to reflect that. Even first 60 mins vs Leeds, we really should have been 2 up. We're much improved on last season where we were toothless going forward towards the end of the season. Defensively it looks like some old issues are rearing their heads. Early days, but I hope it's just a blip.

Incredibly we're still the highest rated team in the league on whoscored.com. We're 3rd in shots on target per game, 1st in chances created per game, 1st in assists etc. Also incredibly, we're among the lowest in the passing statistics. Don't really keep possession well, play back to front quickly etc. We're very potent and efficient in attack, and I like it.

[briny_ear]

26 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

According to raw numbers, how we compare to other sides this season.

Be good to see it first four v last two. Or maybe in games we win v games we don't win in a few weeks time. Does feel like we're swinging to opposite ends of the performance spectrum without hanging round in the middle too much.

Aren't these the charts that tell us covid-19 is really bad in Liverpool?

[Kiwivillan]

3 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

According to raw numbers, how we compare to other sides this season.

Be good to see it first four v last two. Or maybe in games we win v games we don't win in a few weeks time. Does feel like we're swinging to opposite ends of the performance spectrum without hanging round in the middle too much.

Very impressive. We're still a work in progress. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that

[Delphinho123]

11 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Balance isn't working I agree. However, I think player underperformance, especially Barkley, as opposed to much else is to blame the last two games though. Balance wasn't right in Sheff U, Fulham or Leicester either.

Very tough to press as a 4231, that's why many of the top pressing sides play 433. Liverpool, City, Barca, Real, PSG. Other teams are trying different things but that's a solid shape for a top side trying to dominate. Smith is trying to do it.

If we play 4231, we'll be standing off teams more and I don't think he likes it. Doesn't see not dominating as a good way of trying to win games. Makes sense.

I'd love to see McGinn charge around on the right of a front three. Absolutely zero doubt he'd be better than Trez or Traore. Zero.

I'd be interested in starting Ramsey over Barkley at Arsenal. Get some real legs in there, not sure what's been up with Barkley last two games.

There is so few decent options in terms of personnel. Smith has attracted more criticism than is fair after four wins to kick off. He's gone and broken people's expectations again. Needs to stop doing that.

Absolutely 100% this, Tomaszk. I agree with you, as usual. 

There is no reason as to why McGinn can't play on the right of a front 3. He has all the attributes to play there - Can run with the ball, can shoot, can cross, can dribble. He's certainly better than Trezeguet at everything so he would be an upgrade in that position. I have my doubts about Traore but he looks set for a lengthy spell out now so we could absolutely try this. It would allow us to play Ramsey in the middle, or Nakamba if we wanted to try and sure up defensively. 
It's essentially what we did with Grealish. We were poor across the front 3 so we converted him into a wide forward - we can do the same with McGinn. 

I suppose many will disagree though!

[Delphinho123]

11 hours ago, romavillan said:

People went over the top in reaction to us winnign 4 on the bounce, there is an over the top reaction to losing two on the bounce now. 

Simple fact is when Smith took over we were 15th or so in the Championship, had we beat Southampton we would have gone top of the league. After the over the top reactions to winning the first 4 some people are overly gutted we aren't winning every week in style. Not for the first time Smith has made a rod for his own back by having an unexpected spell of success, too much too soon again. Arguably we came up a year before we were planning on doing so, and we almost certainly over achieved with our start to the season. Criticism is fine, but there were actually people calling for him to be sacked after the saints game. Those doing that should have a little think what bottom half Championship felt like. 

We look good to improve on last season, 10 points more than last season for me is solid improvement and I don't see why we can't do that. Then next season we can compete on wages with the top half clubs, THEN if we get the recruitment right there will rightly be pressure on Smith to get a result more weeks than not. There really shouldn't be at the moment, we all know the squad is thin, three or four of our first choice eleven have a a bad game and we don't have the bench to be able to sort that out. 

Patience. UTV.  

Who was calling for him to be sacked? Genuine question. 

[MrBlack]

23 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Absolutely 100% this, Tomaszk. I agree with you, as usual. 

There is no reason as to why McGinn can't play on the right of a front 3. He has all the attributes to play there - Can run with the ball, can shoot, can cross, can dribble. He's certainly better than Trezeguet at everything so he would be an upgrade in that position. I have my doubts about Traore but he looks set for a lengthy spell out now so we could absolutely try this. It would allow us to play Ramsey in the middle, or Nakamba if we wanted to try and sure up defensively. 
It's essentially what we did with Grealish. We were poor across the front 3 so we converted him into a wide forward - we can do the same with McGinn. 

I suppose many will disagree though!

Wouldn't be against seeing it tried, but not sure he would be a effective then.  The chance to turn and run in either direction is one of McGinn's biggest strengths, which he wouldnt be able to do anywhere near as often on the wing. 

[Delphinho123]

4 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Wouldn't be against seeing it tried, but not sure he would be a effective then.  The chance to turn and run in either direction is one of McGinn's biggest strengths, which he wouldnt be able to do anywhere near as often on the wing. 

Yep, you could be right. 
I'm just thinking of ways we can improve in the middle of the park. If we move McGinn out to the right, it might allow us to bring in Ramsey's energy. 

Of course, I could be talking absolute bollo**

[villalad21]

If we play like we did in that 2nd half we will be hammering loads of teams this season.

[MotoMkali]

This is how I would like to play. Jack as a false 9, mcginn and Luiz holding. Traore/Trez and watkins as wingers running in behind.

[VillaAlex]

13 hours ago, romavillan said:

People went over the top in reaction to us winnign 4 on the bounce, there is an over the top reaction to losing two on the bounce now. 

Simple fact is when Smith took over we were 15th or so in the Championship, had we beat Southampton we would have gone top of the league. After the over the top reactions to winning the first 4 some people are overly gutted we aren't winning every week in style. Not for the first time Smith has made a rod for his own back by having an unexpected spell of success, too much too soon again. Arguably we came up a year before we were planning on doing so, and we almost certainly over achieved with our start to the season. Criticism is fine, but there were actually people calling for him to be sacked after the saints game. Those doing that should have a little think what bottom half Championship felt like. 

We look good to improve on last season, 10 points more than last season for me is solid improvement and I don't see why we can't do that. Then next season we can compete on wages with the top half clubs, THEN if we get the recruitment right there will rightly be pressure on Smith to get a result more weeks than not. There really shouldn't be at the moment, we all know the squad is thin, three or four of our first choice eleven have a a bad game and we don't have the bench to be able to sort that out. 

Patience. UTV.  

Great post couldn't agree more.

[Phil Silvers]

14 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

 

I'd love to see McGinn charge around on the right of a front three. Absolutely zero doubt he'd be better than Trez or Traore. Zero.

 

Been thinking this for a while but was afraid to say it.

You also mentioned Ramsey, looking at other youngsters stepping up and doing well, I see no reason why Ramsey cannot do it too.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Phil Silvers

[TRO]

19 hours ago, MrBlack said:

Move Luiz to where Barkley plays,  rotate them based on who is having an off day (if they both are then tough shit).

Bring in a DM better than Nakamba and we'll have a great midfield.

The current first 11 is great when we're on the front foot. Shocking when we're not. Conor would make that statement even more true so doesn't help us. We really do lack any kind of player that can change a game in our favour from when plan A isn't working. Changing style has helped to a degree so far, but when the players themselves are having an off day we are screwed.

Way better position than we were in last year at least, but we need a DM desperately in Jan. 

[TRO]

18 hours ago, briny_ear said:

I’m not personally convinced we will be able to get the stature of midfielder we need in the January window. May manage a marginal improvement but it wold be sensible to work on the basis that we have to make better use of what we have got.

Basically we gave Southampton far too much space in midfield and paid the penalty. We showed in the post lockdown phase and in the first couple of matches this season that we can play much tighter and that is what we need to get back to. I think the 7-2 may have gone to everyone’s heads, including the manager.

I think you make a good point Briny.

It was also interesting listening to Brendan Rodgers talking tactics to sky ( which was very brave, giving his plan away) before and after the game.....He said we denied them the space they need....of course Vardy with his super charged heels helps and all his players showed a sharpness commensurate with a razor blade....they were first to every ball in the early exchanges and it rattled Leeds.....hence my comments " all the teams are good, if you let them be"

Leicester clearly showed that Leeds are as vulnerable as the rest of us , if you play them right.

I hope Dean has learnt something from watching that game.

I worry ( unduly,I hope) that Dean resorted to a system post Lock down that kept us up.....now the pressure is off, has referred back to his intrinsic instinct.....but its too open and benevolent.

[TRO]

23 hours ago, romavillan said:

People went over the top in reaction to us winnign 4 on the bounce, there is an over the top reaction to losing two on the bounce now. 

Simple fact is when Smith took over we were 15th or so in the Championship, had we beat Southampton we would have gone top of the league. After the over the top reactions to winning the first 4 some people are overly gutted we aren't winning every week in style. Not for the first time Smith has made a rod for his own back by having an unexpected spell of success, too much too soon again. Arguably we came up a year before we were planning on doing so, and we almost certainly over achieved with our start to the season. Criticism is fine, but there were actually people calling for him to be sacked after the saints game. Those doing that should have a little think what bottom half Championship felt like. 

We look good to improve on last season, 10 points more than last season for me is solid improvement and I don't see why we can't do that. Then next season we can compete on wages with the top half clubs, THEN if we get the recruitment right there will rightly be pressure on Smith to get a result more weeks than not. There really shouldn't be at the moment, we all know the squad is thin, three or four of our first choice eleven have a a bad game and we don't have the bench to be able to sort that out. 

Patience. UTV.  

What has that got to do with the dynamics of the last 2 games......What transpired in the first 4 games, was suffient to expect a better response than we got from our players, in the last 2....Leeds and Southampton had a significantly different approach than the opponents of the first 4 games and Liverpool and Leicester was in that first 4......and they are top teams.

Where we have come from is irrelevant to me, its more to do with certain opponents know how to play us and gain the advantage.....they know our achilles Heel and know how to negate our spirit.

MaVilla's resume is spot on.

When you beat Liverpool by a 5 goal margin aren't the fans entitled to be heady in their expectations.....when you then play Leicester away and beat them, you would be an ebenezer Scrooge to not be excited for the future.....confidence was naturally sky high.

The last 2 games for me was clear.....The basics had been forgotten and the ability to win the right to play, was abandoned.....they was up for the fight and we wasn't.....The culmination of that was we left space unattended all over the pitch against Leeds and failed to be first to the ball against Southampton....there was clear similarities in the 2 games for me and it was part tactical and part non-competitive.....We was slowly drifting in to last seasons pre lockdown, where we thought our talent( or Jacks) alone would see us through, it won't, you have to work.....and I don't mean idle running or shadowing, I mean effective running and closing down the space and working in small groups.

The contrast in our 4 games and the last 2 is alarming, in many ways.....but it is fixable, if it is identified and appreciated and worked on.

Its early days and there is no alarm, at present.....but we have to work on the deficiencies we seem to be able to find in playing certain teams whose approach rattles us.

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by TRO

[villalad21]

46 minutes ago, TRO said:

It was also interesting listening to Brendan Rodgers talking tactics to sky ( which was very brave, giving his plan away) before and after the game.....He said we denied them the space they need....of course Vardy with his super charged heels helps and all his players showed a sharpness commensurate with a razor blade....they were first to every ball in the early exchanges and it rattled Leeds.....hence my comments " all the teams are good, if you let them be"

I too was very impressed with Brendan Rodgers yesterday.

[sheepyvillian]

16 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I think attacking-wise at least, we've been as potent as we've ever been this season against Saints. Real threat going forward, and we had 3 goals to reflect that. Even first 60 mins vs Leeds, we really should have been 2 up. We're much improved on last season where we were toothless going forward towards the end of the season. Defensively it looks like some old issues are rearing their heads. Early days, but I hope it's just a blip.

Incredibly we're still the highest rated team in the league on whoscored.com. We're 3rd in shots on target per game, 1st in chances created per game, 1st in assists etc. Also incredibly, we're among the lowest in the passing statistics. Don't really keep possession well, play back to front quickly etc. We're very potent and efficient in attack, and I like it.

And so do I. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by sheepyvillian

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

What has that got to do with the dynamics of the last 2 games......What transpired in the first 4 games, was suffient to expect a better response than we got from our players....Leeds and Southampton had a significantly different approach than the opponents of the first 4 games and Liverpool and Leicester was in that first 4......they are top teams.

Where we have come from is irrelevant to me, its more to do with certain opponents know how to play us and gain the advantage.....they know our achilles Heel and know how to negate our spirit.

MaVilla's resume is spot on.

When you beat Liverpool by a 5 goal margin aren't the fans entitled to be heady in their expectations.....when you then play Leicester away and beat them, you would be an ebenezer Scrooge to not be excited for the future.....confidence was naturally sky high.

The last 2 games for me was clear.....The basics had been forgotten and the ability to win the right to play, was abandoned.....they was up for the fight and we wasn't.....The culmination of that was we left space unattended all over the pitch against Leeds and failed to be first to the ball against Southampton....there was clear similarities in the 2 games for me and it was part tactical and part non-competitive.....We was slowly drifting in to last seasons pre lockdown, where we thought our talent( or Jacks) alone would see us through, it won't, you have to work.....and I don't mean idle running or shadowing, I mean effective running and closing down the space and working in small groups.

The contrast in our 4 games and the last 2 is alarming, in many ways.....but it is fixable, if it is identified and appreciated and worked on.

Its early days and there is no alarm, at present.....but we have to work on the deficiencies we seem to be able to find in playing certain teams whose approach rattles us.

 

He was on about over the top criticism. I mean, people calling for Smiths head after 2 defeats. It beggars belief. Yes there was plenty to fault in those two defeats, the same way there was plenty to admire about our 4 victories, but let's keep things in perspective. I firmly believe we're in capable hands and, for me, the future looks bright. 

[KenjiOgiwara]

Prior to Leeds Leicester on the telly yesterday, they showed Leeds us. 

The zonal defending we did on at least one of their goals was soo bad. We really need to tighten up the zonal marking or we're in for a heap of trouble this season. 

[villalad21]

I'm not a big fan of zonal marking tbf

[KenjiOgiwara]

Zonal marking is great if you know what you're doing. I'd argue the best defensive teams I've seen used zonal marking.