The Hawk Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 44 minutes ago, TRO said: And i do get that, i really do.....and I am as grateful As the next man. but i am not taking for granted their money or the opportunity they have presented us. I am merely highlighting my anxiety to get self sufficient.....and to do that, we must be better at signing players who offer us REAL value. What’s your blueprint for achieving this? Collectively the dynamics of the players we bought (different leagues, nationalities etc) was a dogs breakfast but as individuals nearly all of our signings fit the bill of what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 11 hours ago, The Hawk said: What’s your blueprint for achieving this? Collectively the dynamics of the players we bought (different leagues, nationalities etc) was a dogs breakfast but as individuals nearly all of our signings fit the bill of what you are saying. I'm talking about real value that finds its way on to the pitch......The midfield as just one aspect, lacks many of the attributes required to stay in this league.....25 million for 2 players that struggle to apply the basics.....sure one is quite young and may develop, but he is a project player, not one to secure safety from relegation.....the hype on him was stratospheric. you look around the league and you see players making a real impact that we would turn our noses up at. I genuinely, recognise our difference of opinion......many fans would cite the Benrama's and Maupay's as missed opportunities and I disagree.......We have missed out on players that can hold a game together and make a real affect of containing teams...... we have gone after too many creative players IMO ( who have deemed to be non creative) because they can't impose their game, due to losing duels and lacking combative tendency. We should have gone after the modern day, Townsends, Mcmahons, Richardsons, Barry's, Parkers and Houghtons......players who can hold midfield. Up front in the past...we went after Dean Saunders......but the modern day equivalent is Ings going to Southampton.....we just seem to miss out on players who would develop our squad...... we sign players who know one has any inkling they will be any good, just hope the talent spotters know what they are doing. I look at Basham and John Egan.....would we sign those types, no, not good enough for us......yet resolute for Sheff Utd. I just don't think we go after the right types, in general......Tyrone Mings, looked the only player that would make a real difference to me and he has gone off the boil, temporary I hope. We spent a lot of money on Unknowns, with Paddy Riley and how did that turn out......we have gone and done much the same thing again. sadly, I don't see much change coming. Ps Albion went down the same route for years, obsessed with talent and lightweight players, who couldn't hold a game together, their fans craved it.....but it got them nowhere......Only now, since they have morphed in to a more rounded team with steel in the right places, have they learned how to compete and win games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) Best squads are always a mixture of experience and youth.... Look at what we assembled finishing 6th in this league a decade ago.... Experienced international standard keeper in Friedel who was still one of the best in premier league when we got him. In fairness Heaton was a similar pick up so no issue on that one. Defence had Bouma, Mellberg, Laursen and then likes of Cahill coming through. So with first three been it seen it defenders of vast experience who'd play in international tournaments for their countries and also played CL seasons for clubs. Now in fairness Mellberg was an unknown when he got him so I'm not saying Engels couldn't develop into a very good CB over time. With midfield we had Petrov although he took a good 18 months to really get into good form here. Barry had been here for ages and seen it all and was still improving as a player once we moved him to CM. Young was simply a fantastic pick up. Note there him and Delph were I think the only two we signed in those first three years of MON from lower leagues compared to now. Upfront we signed Carew in first season and had Gabby and Luke Moore coming through. Baros and Angel were still around but being phased out. Of course times were different then. We were an established prem club albeit one who at that time had declined to mid table obscurity after losing the cup final in 2000 so easier to attract players in that position as Everton can still do that (probably the best equivilant of us going back to 2006). It still all came together to produce teams capable of finishing at least 6th (we should've of course finished higher in at least one of those seasons with better squad management) in what was unquestionably a much stronger premier league than now when you look at the european performances of the sides back Overall though I just think it's a bit naive to ever think we'll get back to challenging for 6th with a steady diet of lower league players here and from abroad. Eventually (and the process will obviously be delayed now due to Corona) we need to start going out there and signing top level players. Probably a top level manager aswell. Interesting to see what happens to FFP now. That being scrapped or restrictions lifted in short term could really help us I think as Purslow has mentioned in interview we would've been restricted still by it this summer even if we stayed up. Edited March 19, 2020 by VillaChris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 20 hours ago, Zatman said: Doug Ellis 10 record transfers Angel Collymore Alpay Baros Stone Dublin Balaban Crouch Alan Thompson Mellberg 2 hits, Angel a maybe. Lot of duds and I dont think we made profit on any of them players Crouch was only about 3m wasn't he, Merson cost more. Thought Alpay was really good until he got injured and then got inflated sense of himself from the world cup. We could've easily sold him for what we paid if we'd cashed in after that world cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 18 hours ago, kurtsimonw said: Just a weird view IMO. It just suggests that owners are responsible for all failures and all successes. It just isn't the case. Unfortunately it seems we live in an age of no accountability. If you do a shit job, its your fault, not your bosses. IMO If they hired complete unknowns and put these people in a position to fail, I agree. But they've hired people who are by no means out of their depth, and backed them. It depends really. There were reports Wes Edens is very big on stats used in sports from his american sports team ventures so I'd say he'd have at least ventured that to Suso and DS this summer. Ultimately if you're going to give them 140m to spend I'd imagine you'd at least steer them in the direction you want it to be spend e.g. do we just target mainly under 25s with sell on value to try to grow a team as we've done or do you say go and get 3-4 28-29 year olds with little sell on and we'll plug the rest with loan deals and out of conracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 36 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Crouch was only about 3m wasn't he, Merson cost more. Thought Alpay was really good until he got injured and then got inflated sense of himself from the world cup. We could've easily sold him for what we paid if we'd cashed in after that world cup. Crouch was 6 million and we sold him for 2 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 I got 5m but more than I remembered considering it was 2002 and he had a good half season in division one at the time, simply wasn't ready for the premier league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 19, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted March 19, 2020 I had no memory of Crouch costing that much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir_gary_cahill Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Zatman said: Crouch was 6 million and we sold him for 2 million We bought Crouch for £5m from Portsmouth in March 2002, Graham Taylor was manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, VillaChris said: Best squads are always a mixture of experience and youth.... Look at what we assembled finishing 6th in this league a decade ago.... Experienced international standard keeper in Friedel who was still one of the best in premier league when we got him. In fairness Heaton was a similar pick up so no issue on that one. Defence had Bouma, Mellberg, Laursen and then likes of Cahill coming through. So with first three been it seen it defenders of vast experience who'd play in international tournaments for their countries and also played CL seasons for clubs. Now in fairness Mellberg was an unknown when he got him so I'm not saying Engels couldn't develop into a very good CB over time. With midfield we had Petrov although he took a good 18 months to really get into good form here. Barry had been here for ages and seen it all and was still improving as a player once we moved him to CM. Young was simply a fantastic pick up. Note there him and Delph were I think the only two we signed in those first three years of MON from lower leagues compared to now. Upfront we signed Carew in first season and had Gabby and Luke Moore coming through. Baros and Angel were still around but being phased out. Of course times were different then. We were an established prem club albeit one who at that time had declined to mid table obscurity after losing the cup final in 2000 so easier to attract players in that position as Everton can still do that (probably the best equivilant of us going back to 2006). It still all came together to produce teams capable of finishing at least 6th (we should've of course finished higher in at least one of those seasons with better squad management) in what was unquestionably a much stronger premier league than now when you look at the european performances of the sides back Overall though I just think it's a bit naive to ever think we'll get back to challenging for 6th with a steady diet of lower league players here and from abroad. Eventually (and the process will obviously be delayed now due to Corona) we need to start going out there and signing top level players. Probably a top level manager aswell. Interesting to see what happens to FFP now. That being scrapped or restrictions lifted in short term could really help us I think as Purslow has mentioned in interview we would've been restricted still by it this summer even if we stayed up. Good post.....I think Wolves and Sheff Utd with different styles, have proved its doable to get back to respectable levels of this league.....its just about doing the crucial things right. its not about searching for wonder players, which are beyond our reach....its about blending a team that can can cope with all aspects of the game and when called upon can deal in the "Dark Arts " too... a more rounded team, with a resolute spine and a sprinkling of creative skill to complement. Its not the impossible task that some feel it is.....you just need the staff to do it. to keep failing in the transfer market, does not make the task more difficult, it just questions them that are doing it.....other clubs not as big as us , manage it. Edited March 19, 2020 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, sir_gary_cahill said: We bought Crouch for £5m from Portsmouth in March 2002, Graham Taylor was manager And O'Leary sold him, after scoring at Leicester, in a 1-5 i think, judt starting to make his mark....another example of poor judgment. Edited March 19, 2020 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 2 hours ago, VillaChris said: It depends really. There were reports Wes Edens is very big on stats used in sports from his american sports team ventures so I'd say he'd have at least ventured that to Suso and DS this summer. Ultimately if you're going to give them 140m to spend I'd imagine you'd at least steer them in the direction you want it to be spend e.g. do we just target mainly under 25s with sell on value to try to grow a team as we've done or do you say go and get 3-4 28-29 year olds with little sell on and we'll plug the rest with loan deals and out of conracts. If he looks at our stats, he will be a very unhappy man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thabucks Posted March 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 19, 2020 WIP self admittedly one year ahead of where they thought they’d be ... Appointed a Competent and reassuring CEO thus far. funded an complete Squad at a good age with great potential to grow. Pumped $$$ in to do so ... Not sure what’s to criticise ? 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, thabucks said: WIP self admittedly one year ahead of where they thought they’d be ... Appointed a Competent and reassuring CEO thus far. funded an complete Squad at a good age with great potential to grow. Pumped $$$ in to do so ... Not sure what’s to criticise ? Nothing more they could have done, and I'm sure they'll be reassessing at the end of the their second season in charge. They were probably pleased with the first season where they got promotion delivered to them of course. Criticism of them at this stage is toddler tantrum stuff. Wanting everything right now and thinking it's easy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 16 hours ago, TRO said: And O'Leary sold him, after scoring at Leicester, in a 1-5 i think, judt starting to make his mark....another example of poor judgment. It was 5-0 and he scored two in that game. I also remember him getting a late winner at Boro. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 agree about the mixture of experience but that's where our previous regime **** up, we should have a Whelan or a Jedinak in that midfield but both are too old and were incapable of coming up with us, we went out and got some experience in the form of drinkwater and look what a disaster that's been...and we don't even pay his full wage, not sure who an example of a good journeyman PL midfielder is at the moment, james mcarthy maybe, joined palace last summer, 29, £5m (ish I think) apparently £50k a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 27 minutes ago, villa4europe said: agree about the mixture of experience but that's where our previous regime **** up, we should have a Whelan or a Jedinak in that midfield but both are too old and were incapable of coming up with us, we went out and got some experience in the form of drinkwater and look what a disaster that's been...and we don't even pay his full wage, not sure who an example of a good journeyman PL midfielder is at the moment, james mcarthy maybe, joined palace last summer, 29, £5m (ish I think) apparently £50k a week A signing in the mold of Cambiasso to Leicester or Moutinho to Wolves would have been invaluable. Someone who's been there and done it at the very highest level. PL experience not really the key. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, villa4europe said: agree about the mixture of experience but that's where our previous regime **** up, we should have a Whelan or a Jedinak in that midfield but both are too old and were incapable of coming up with us, we went out and got some experience in the form of drinkwater and look what a disaster that's been...and we don't even pay his full wage, not sure who an example of a good journeyman PL midfielder is at the moment, james mcarthy maybe, joined palace last summer, 29, £5m (ish I think) apparently £50k a week I would've targeted Matic in January but that shows the difficulty of going after top level players. He got a run at Man. United, played very well and now signed a 1 year extension. Would've been happy with Nzonzi aswell who's now at Rennes so that was more realistic target. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 4 hours ago, villa4europe said: agree about the mixture of experience but that's where our previous regime **** up, we should have a Whelan or a Jedinak in that midfield but both are too old and were incapable of coming up with us, we went out and got some experience in the form of drinkwater and look what a disaster that's been...and we don't even pay his full wage, not sure who an example of a good journeyman PL midfielder is at the moment, james mcarthy maybe, joined palace last summer, 29, £5m (ish I think) apparently £50k a week I think thats where the nous comes in. I here this call for experience and I'm filled with foreboding.....its not that it hasn't got merit, but I would put more emphasis on character, desire and will to win, irrespective of age.....some experience can be bad experience, I'm not soley convinced.....if they have trod the boards with the best managers, picked up best practice, then I would think again. We have had some staff in the past, good at it......in fact our whole history has been borne out of modest signings.....big money has never been our forte. Liquid Funds will always be important, to seize a bargain and none so more as this current climate.....but we have to be better at talent spotting and knowing that player will integrate in to the overall model .i.e the team.....some calculated gambles, would be prudent IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 This break at least gives them an extended period to analyse and put things in motion re:any deficiencies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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