Vegetarianism/Veganism

[Stevo985]

7 hours ago, mjmooney said:

And therein lies the crux of the problem. Some people hate what they see as compromise, half measures. 'Black and white' absolutism is appealing. You see it in politics with the whole 'hard left'/'hard right' thing. 

But in practice, we all draw a line somewhere. Most meat eaters close their eyes to factory farming cruelty, but draw distinctions like 'eating cows is OK, but eating horses isn't'. Or dogs and cats. It's very often based around whether we see a particular species as cute and cuddly. 

Yet vegetarians, and even vegans, draw a similar line, they just choose to draw it further down the chain. OK to kill fish? Maybe yes, maybe no. Insects? Erm... 

Ultimately, you could end up with the reductio ad absurdam of some eastern religions, where acolytes wear gauze masks in case they inadvertently breathe in tiny insects, and walk around gingerly to avoid stepping on a fly. Kill no living thing? Threats to human health? Mosquitos? Bacteria? It's a problem, eh? 

It's all compromise. 

Absolutely. But I don't think it's a problem as such.

From what I've read/watched/heard about the subject, Veganism is about what's "necessary" and practical.

Humans don't need to eat animals or wear leather or use animal products. But to live there will of course be some living things that get killed or injured or whatever. And as someone else said earlier in the thread it's never going to be perfect. But that's no reason to not do what you can.

So a Vegan would look at someone eating Fish and not approve because to them that's a completely avoidable choice. You've chosen to eat that fish and it's died because of it. 
it would be hard to avoid killing insects accidentally while living your day to day life.

[maqroll]

Cow farts are piercing a hole in the sky, so now's a good time to cut out beef and limit dairy. Thew hurricane that hit the Carolinas flooded pig manure depots and pig shit was spread all over the area for miles. Absolutely disgusting and a real toxic health hazard. Industrial scale factory meat production is straight up gross and an environmental threat. Hopefully meat consumption will decrease with the constant alarm being sounded. 

[LondonLax]

This planet can’t sustain 7.5 billion people eating a western meat diet so I am thankful for every one of you who goes vegan.

I’ll try and cut back (especially beef) but I can’t give it up myself. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by LondonLax

[KenjiOgiwara]

13 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Humans don't need to eat animals or wear leather or use animal products. 

 

That's up for debate. I assume there's ethics and sustainability to be discussed here. Lots of products that are substitutes for animal products are made from petroleum. Often also treated with different chemicals later on to sustain the same properties, for instance perfluorated compounds. So come back with this statement after doing a full LCA on everything involved from the petroleum industri, to shipping (crude oil ships to be precise), to the chemical industry, how all of this affect the environment,  and tell me whether this is more ethical for our planet than some high ground vegetarian POV of animal welfare. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by KenjiOgiwara

[bickster]

If everyone stopped eating beef tomorrow, no one would need cattle raised for beef and by all accounts, cow farts are killing the planet, so the cows must be slaughtered to stop them farting, can't we just slaughter them in time for tea? Also if I'm eating beef, that's a cow that has been killed, so it won't fart again, so by eating beef, I'm saving the planet surely?

[Stevo985]

14 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

That's up for debate. I assume there's ethics and sustainability to be discussed here. Lots of products that are substitutes for animal products are made from petroleum. Often also treated with different chemicals later on to sustain the same properties, for instance perfluorated compounds. So come back with this statement after doing a full LCA on everything involved from the petroleum industri, to shipping (crude oil ships to be precise), to the chemical industry, how all of this affect the environment,  and tell me whether this is more ethical for our planet than some high ground vegetarian POV of animal welfare. 

Fair point of view. I don’t agree with it but that’s your opinion. 

I won’t resort to insults because you disagree with me though. 

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

If everyone stopped eating beef tomorrow, no one would need cattle raised for beef and by all accounts, cow farts are killing the planet, so the cows must be slaughtered to stop them farting, can't we just slaughter them in time for tea? Also if I'm eating beef, that's a cow that has been killed, so it won't fart again, so by eating beef, I'm saving the planet surely?

I know you’re joking but in reality reduction in eating meat wouldn’t happen over night. If it did then it would be a problem for sure. 

If it actually happened it would be a gradual reduction. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

I know you’re joking but in reality reduction in eating meat wouldn’t happen over night. If it did then it would be a problem for sure. 

If it actually happened it would be a gradual reduction. 

So if everyone did stop eating Beef overnight that would cause a real problem, phew glad I'm part of the solution 

[tonyh29]

I've been to India where they don't eat beef ... cows always wandering into the road causing traffic problems

we don't get cows walking onto the M25 causing traffic issues  , therefore by eating cows we are keeping Britain's roads moving  

[Wainy316]

From an environmental perspective the only thing we can do is cull humans, which of course we can't.

For everyone that turns vegan there are probably thousands of future meat eaters born.  Same with any other green policy.  The world population is spiraling out of control and that is the real issue/cause of any issues.

[KenjiOgiwara]

33 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Fair point of view. I don’t agree with it but that’s your opinion. 

I won’t resort to insults because you disagree with me though. 

That's not a point of view. You can do an LCA on that. It's a fact that it's a huge environmental footprint if you ditch specific animal products for synthetic ones. 

It's very much a nuanced debate in general though, and I think veganism is a good thing. But this notion that replacing natural products for synthetic ones is a sensible and good choice due to animal ethics, that's just flawed thinking. In the environmental discussion you have to consider the greater good at all times, especially since we have **** up the climate to the degree we have. 

[PieFacE]

23 hours ago, mjmooney said:

And therein lies the crux of the problem. Some people hate what they see as compromise, half measures. 'Black and white' absolutism is appealing. You see it in politics with the whole 'hard left'/'hard right' thing. 

But in practice, we all draw a line somewhere. Most meat eaters close their eyes to factory farming cruelty, but draw distinctions like 'eating cows is OK, but eating horses isn't'. Or dogs and cats. It's very often based around whether we see a particular species as cute and cuddly. 

Yet vegetarians, and even vegans, draw a similar line, they just choose to draw it further down the chain. OK to kill fish? Maybe yes, maybe no. Insects? Erm... 

Ultimately, you could end up with the reductio ad absurdam of some eastern religions, where acolytes wear gauze masks in case they inadvertently breathe in tiny insects, and walk around gingerly to avoid stepping on a fly. Kill no living thing? Threats to human health? Mosquitos? Bacteria? It's a problem, eh? 

It's all compromise. 

My mentality has always been to not eat or kill an animal/insect that has no intention or ability to harm me. So I never kill insects just as much as I'd never eat an animal. But there are limits to that, if I was in a situation where I was being attacked or bitten by an animal/insect, I'd have no problems inflicting some pain on said creature as a form of self defense, that's kinda where I draw the line I think. 

As for bacteria, never really thought about that to be honest. 

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

I've been to India where they don't eat beef ... cows always wandering into the road causing traffic problems

we don't get cows walking onto the M25 causing traffic issues  , therefore by eating cows we are keeping Britain's roads moving  

I struggle with posts from you, because I know that in general you're a pretty switched on guy, but I've had people argue with me that actually seem to believe things like this.  

[tonyh29]

7 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I struggle with posts from you, because I know that in general you're a pretty switched on guy, but I've had people argue with me that actually seem to believe things like this.  

you should hear my reasons for speeding argument    a few friends even think I'm being serious with it  

 

Edit - of course it only works if I share said reason  .. it was along the lines of if you do 40 in a 30 and hit a child you'd kill them , my counter argument was that if I was doing 40 I'd have already gone past them when they stepped out into the road and thus wouldn't hit them , I swear i could see the gears turning inside one mates head as he tried to process it

Edited December 31, 2018 by tonyh29

[Davkaus]

16 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Well it was aimed at the vegans in this thread, like @TheAuthority @Dick @Davkaus etc as they probably are interested and might be able to give me some advice. 

I think you'll be fine tbh. I'd emphasise something you've already said; don't worry about perfection. I've seen a few people try it, obsess over the little details, and decide that because they can't easily replace absolutely everything, especially with some of the trickier stuff like cosmetics, medication, etc, it's not worth bothering at all.

And if you join facebook groups and that kind of thing, don't let the odd headcase or self-appointed member of the vegan gestapo get you down. Most people are pretty chilled, but there's occasionally a bit of "I'm a considerably better vegan than you". I still get shit from the odd person for happily continuing to use loads of leather stuff I bought years ago.

Here's a few of the sites I tend to turn to for quick and easy meals:

https://minimalistbaker.com/

https://www.veganricha.com/

https://itdoesnttastelikechicken.com/

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/vegan

https://www.reddit.com/r/veganrecipes/ has lots of noise, but I've found the odd meal idea there

Bosh and Thug Kitchen are both pretty good, but many of their recipes are a lot of faff - I try them out occasionally at the weekend or when trying to impress, but it's definitely one to avoid after a long day at work or if you don't really enjoy cooking, IMO.

Vegan Womble is a pretty good resource for UK vegans, lots of lists of products in shops, dates for events and that kind of thing: https://veganwomble.co.uk/

I'd stick the Birmingham Viva fest in your calendar as well. https://www.viva.org.uk/festivals. It's always a good chance to stock up on some of the less mainstream ingredients and the different caterers are often amazing.

And most importantly if you like a drink, http://www.barnivore.com.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Davkaus

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

That's not a point of view. You can do an LCA on that. It's a fact that it's a huge environmental footprint if you ditch specific animal products for synthetic ones. 

It's very much a nuanced debate in general though, and I think veganism is a good thing. But this notion that replacing natural products for synthetic ones is a sensible and good choice due to animal ethics, that's just flawed thinking. In the environmental discussion you have to consider the greater good at all times, especially since we have **** up the climate to the degree we have. 

I don't claim to be an expert so I'm sure you're right that there are certain non-animal products that are less environmentally friendly than the animal equivalent.

But as far as I can see (and again I'm still learning so I'm genuinely interested to hear the other side of the argument) it's pretty unanimous that a vegan diet/lifestyle in general is far more environmentally friendly than a non-vegan diet.

And again, I think we can have that debate without resorting to petty insults like you started off with.

[Stevo985]

11 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I think you'll be fine tbh. I'd emphasise something you've already said; don't worry about perfection. I've seen a few people try it, obsess over the little details, and decide that because they can't easily replace absolutely everything, especially with some of the trickier stuff like cosmetics, medication, etc, it's not worth bothering at all.

And if you join facebook groups and that kind of thing, don't let the odd headcase or self-appointed member of the vegan gestapo get you down. Most people are pretty chilled, but there's occasionally a bit of "I'm a considerably better vegan than you". I still get shit from the odd person for happily continuing to use loads of leather stuff I bought years ago.

Here's a few of the sites I tend to turn to for quick and easy meals:

https://minimalistbaker.com/

https://www.veganricha.com/

https://itdoesnttastelikechicken.com/

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/vegan

https://www.reddit.com/r/veganrecipes/ has lots of noise, but I've found the odd meal idea there

Bosh and Thug Kitchen are both pretty good, but many of their recipes are a lot of faff - I try them out occasionally at the weekend or when trying to impress, but it's definitely one to avoid after a long day at work or if you don't really enjoy cooking, IMO.

Vegan Womble is a pretty good resource for UK vegans, lots of lists of products in shops, dates for events and that kind of thing: https://veganwomble.co.uk/

I'd stick the Birmingham Viva fest in your calendar as well. https://www.viva.org.uk/festivals. It's always a good chance to stock up on some of the less mainstream ingredients and the different caterers are often amazing.

And most importantly if you like a drink, http://www.barnivore.com.

 

Cheers. Did my first shop today and does seem like a bit of a faff at the moment just trying to come up with meals that I can have. I'm sure I'll get used to it.

[Xela]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:

From an environmental perspective the only thing we can do is cull humans, which of course we can't.

For everyone that turns vegan there are probably thousands of future meat eaters born.  Same with any other green policy.  The world population is spiraling out of control and that is the real issue/cause of any issues.

This.

For every bit of good an individual does (recycling etc) there is a new airport or skyscraper being built in China or a new factory pumping out smoke in India. 

Fart in a hurricane. 

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, Xela said:

This.

For every bit of good an individual does (recycling etc) there is a new airport or skyscraper being built in China or a new factory pumping out smoke in India. 

Fart in a hurricane. 

I don't think that's a very good reason for not doing something though.

I'm not here trying to get everyone to convert. I don't particularly care what people do. That was never the intention of this thread.

But if you were ever in a position where you wanted to do it but didn't bother because you didn't think it would make a difference then I don't think that's a very good decision.

 

It's a bit like voting. Your vote in isolation means nothing. But as part of something bigger it matters hugely. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Stevo985

[Xela]

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think that's a very good reason for not doing something though.

I'm not here trying to get everyone to convert. I don't particularly care what people do. That was never the intention of this thread.

But if you were ever in a position where you wanted to do it but didn't bother because you didn't think it would make a difference then I don't think that's a very good decision.

 

It's a bit like voting. Your vote in isolation means nothing. But as part of something bigger it matters hugely. 

I agree, I do my bit where I can but it needs a wholesale change from countries like China and India to make a difference. Plus Trump!

Everyone should do their bit.