Marvel Cinematic Universe

[villa4europe]

But they have Dr Doom... 

I hope they get him in as a big bad across multiple films, he's more interesting than Kang IMO 

[Rds1983]

8 hours ago, villa4europe said:

But they have Dr Doom... 

I hope they get him in as a big bad across multiple films, he's more interesting than Kang IMO 

Great character but previous adaptations haven’t exactly been great. 

[villa4europe]

Shang chi director is doing the next avengers film 

[sne]

 

[stewiek2]

The day before San Diego Comic Con Marvel filed for copyright in the UK the titles 'Eternity Saga', 'Celestials: End of Time', 'Avengers: Eternity Wars', 'Captain America: Red White and Black, 'Nomad' and 'Timeless Saga'.

[Straggler]

 

Ain't gonna lie, this trailer looked ok to me.  It's a comedy.  I'm ok with a comedy.  Not very original, but can probably watch it with the kids.  I mean, the jokes we can see:

Sleeping person woken by airhorn

Spandex is good for when you get big

4th wall break

Pupil is outrageously better than teacher at lesson

Big super bangs head in small location

Cultural misunderstanding

Flipping the middle finger

All of these have been done before (most just in Deadpool) and done better, but it seems delivered well enough.  Sort of 6 out of 10 may watch a bit, rather than 2 out of ten it looked in the last trailer.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Straggler
me not write good

[villa4europe]

Thor added to disney+ 8th September 

[Straggler]

I actually didn't mind she hulk. Not great, but as a bit of a cheesy family sitcom it's ok. 

[CVByrne]

 

Very good breakdown of issues with Phase 4

[Chindie]

That video is a portal to all the shittiest bits of YouTube.

Edit - Christ, that's properly awful cynical stuff. Cynical in that it's playing to a very, very specific audience in a vomit inducing way. It's also pointedly wrong in various places.

Phase 4 isn't rough because it's 'woke'. It's rough because some of the writing is shit.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Chindie

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

That video is a portal to all the shittiest bits of YouTube.

Edit - Christ, that's properly awful cynical stuff. Cynical in that it's playing to a very, very specific audience in a vomit inducing way. It's also pointedly wrong in various places.

Phase 4 isn't rough because it's 'woke'. It's rough because some of the writing is shit.

I don't know the channel, friend sent the video on. I do agree with many of the points she made. The lack of the heroes journey for the protagonists, the characters are born awesome and the movie arc is about the universe realising it, there's no strife. Also the bait and switches, everything is bait and switch with Disney these days. The tearing down of beloved male characters as a method to raise the new characters above them etc..

 

[leemond2008]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

That video is a portal to all the shittiest bits of YouTube.

Edit - Christ, that's properly awful cynical stuff. Cynical in that it's playing to a very, very specific audience in a vomit inducing way. It's also pointedly wrong in various places.

Phase 4 isn't rough because it's 'woke'. It's rough because some of the writing is shit.

I haven't watched any of the Marvel films since Endgame aside from the 2 Spiderman films, I've read people say it is because they are shoehorning in the "woke" agenda that the writing is suffering for it.

Again I haven't seen them and aside from the whole Captain Marvel furore don't have a clue what peoples complaints are but if they are forcing the woke stuff then I could see them having a point.

[ender4]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

Also the bait and switches, everything is bait and switch with Disney these days. The tearing down of beloved male characters as a method to raise the new characters above them etc..

Has that actually happened with any MCU characters?

Possibly Thor 4 (as I haven’t seen it yet) so no spoilers of that one please.

[Demitri_C]

Any one aatched she hulk yet? I was ginna start on ms marvel but everyone is telling me its really crap

[CVByrne]

26 minutes ago, leemond2008 said:

I haven't watched any of the Marvel films since Endgame aside from the 2 Spiderman films, I've read people say it is because they are shoehorning in the "woke" agenda that the writing is suffering for it.

Again I haven't seen them and aside from the whole Captain Marvel furore don't have a clue what peoples complaints are but if they are forcing the woke stuff then I could see them having a point.

It's really how they end up writing the characters. Nobody has an issue with having more female and diverse characters. The problem is how they're written. There is a belief with the current crop of writers at Disney that they need to portray strong female characters (again no issues there) but the way they do that is to write them as being awesome and perfect from the start and better than the existing characters you know and love. This is the core of why the Phase 4 is bad and why Star Was is bad. If the main characters are perfect from the start there is no stakes, there is no arc, there is no tension etc.. 

I think the best example of this is Mulan, the cartoon from 98 she has to work and train extra hard and use her wit. In the 2020 version she is born with awesome powers. The former will be an engaging story the latter won't be. 

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, leemond2008 said:

I haven't watched any of the Marvel films since Endgame aside from the 2 Spiderman films, I've read people say it is because they are shoehorning in the "woke" agenda that the writing is suffering for it.

Again I haven't seen them and aside from the whole Captain Marvel furore don't have a clue what peoples complaints are but if they are forcing the woke stuff then I could see them having a point.

They aren't 'forcing' 'woke' stuff in to it. The shitty video linked is edited and written for a captive audience that wants there to be a woke agenda to everything so they can moan about it.

What they have done, is introduce new characters and versions of characters that aren't just men. A criticism of the MCU, particularly Phase 1 & 2, is it's a right old sausage fest and all the female characters are paper thin. They started to address this in Phase 3, when they started to build up some female characters and introduce some non-white characters. Phase 4 continues this.

The shitty video above portrays this as forced wokeness where everyones a Mary Sue and everyone is else is shit. When the reality is this isn't the case, and even the examples that video 'analysis' offers are bobbins. For reference, this is what Phase 4 looks like (spoilers for everything phase 4 to date)

Spoiler

Wandavision - Wanda deals with grief and goes evil.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Falcon deals with being a hero who isn't 'super', the Captain America mantle, and being black in America. Bucky deals with his demons from being a brainwashed assassin for decades and the loss of his one true friend who could understand him. All this takes place against a terribly written and performed terrorism plot based around the idea of the problems of people coming back from the snap. This attempts to write a sympathetic villain, the shitty video claims this is 'glorifying terrorism'.

Black Widow - Fills in a gap in Black Widow's story (to no real point), where she takes down the Red Room, helped by another 'freed' Widow and her 'father'. Shock horror, the new Widow is very similarly skilled to the old one.

Shang-Chi - introduces a Chinese hero in a kung fu/Chinese fantasy story. It's fine.

Loki - fills in the gap relating to the 2012 Loki managing to escape during Endgame when the Avengers **** up getting the Tesseract, introducing the concept of multiverses and variant characters (i.e., there's loads of Lokis). One of them, a woman (*shocked exclaimation*) becomes a significant character. We eventually set up the new 'Thanos' of the series.

Eternals - is crap

Hawkeye - Hawkeye is struggling with getting old and having lost his friend in Endgame, and also with being the character nobody cares about. Meanwhile a young woman is also good with arrows but is hopeless naive.

Spider-man No Way Home - Multiverses are cool

Moon Knight - a mentally scarred boy creates a seperate personality to cope with his trauma, and then is imbued with power by an ancient god. Meanwhile another guy wants to bring back another (evil?!) god.

Doctor Strange 2 - Multiverses are bad. Wanda is eeeeeeeevvvvvviiiiiilllllllll. A new (female) character is a walking talking MacGuffin that basically has no bearing on the plot at all and obviously, despite the above shitty video, isn't the **** point.

 

I've not watched Ms Marvel or Thor 4 yet, and She-Hulk I'll get to.

None of the above are without fault. Are those faults because they're white man hating woke fests designed to eat lovely white testicles raw? No. This is why they have faults

Spoiler

WandaVision - looks to be setting up some really big stuff, then completely bottles it.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - the terrorism plot is underwritten and hopelessly badly cast. US Agent looks weird.

Black Widow - it's a pointless prequel, they mess up Taskmaster *shakes fist*

Shang-chi - the fantasy elements are a bit rubbish.

Loki - the multiverse stuff bogs everything down and it basically just builds to a big reveal which isn't that well done.

Eternals - it's shit... OK, it tries to tell a story in a single movie that doesn't have the time to develop and build the weight it needs to sell itself, it has awful, awful villains and appaling acting.

Hawkeye - very small scale to the point it feels a little lightweight (but generally I don't recall a great deal wrong with it)

Spider-man No Way Home - it trades heavily on nostalgia

Moon Knight - spends too long on it's 'mystery' and doesn't have enough action

Doctor Strange 2 - Wanda's evil turn is laughably extreme, the multiverse is barely used, it's very much a Raimi movie, which is like Marmite.

None of it is because it's woke. Lots of it is because they wrote bits badly. Thats it.

[leemond2008]

3 minutes ago, Chindie said:

They aren't 'forcing' 'woke' stuff in to it. The shitty video linked is edited and written for a captive audience that wants there to be a woke agenda to everything so they can moan about it.

What they have done, is introduce new characters and versions of characters that aren't just men. A criticism of the MCU, particularly Phase 1 & 2, is it's a right old sausage fest and all the female characters are paper thin. They started to address this in Phase 3, when they started to build up some female characters and introduce some non-white characters. Phase 4 continues this.

The shitty video above portrays this as forced wokeness where everyones a Mary Sue and everyone is else is shit. When the reality is this isn't the case, and even the examples that video 'analysis' offers are bobbins. For reference, this is what Phase 4 looks like (spoilers for everything phase 4 to date)

  Hide contents

Wandavision - Wanda deals with grief and goes evil.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Falcon deals with being a hero who isn't 'super', the Captain America mantle, and being black in America. Bucky deals with his demons from being a brainwashed assassin for decades and the loss of his one true friend who could understand him. All this takes place against a terribly written and performed terrorism plot based around the idea of the problems of people coming back from the snap. This attempts to write a sympathetic villain, the shitty video claims this is 'glorifying terrorism'.

Black Widow - Fills in a gap in Black Widow's story (to no real point), where she takes down the Red Room, helped by another 'freed' Widow and her 'father'. Shock horror, the new Widow is very similarly skilled to the old one.

Shang-Chi - introduces a Chinese hero in a kung fu/Chinese fantasy story. It's fine.

Loki - fills in the gap relating to the 2012 Loki managing to escape during Endgame when the Avengers **** up getting the Tesseract, introducing the concept of multiverses and variant characters (i.e., there's loads of Lokis). One of them, a woman (*shocked exclaimation*) becomes a significant character. We eventually set up the new 'Thanos' of the series.

Eternals - is crap

Hawkeye - Hawkeye is struggling with getting old and having lost his friend in Endgame, and also with being the character nobody cares about. Meanwhile a young woman is also good with arrows but is hopeless naive.

Spider-man No Way Home - Multiverses are cool

Moon Knight - a mentally scarred boy creates a seperate personality to cope with his trauma, and then is imbued with power by an ancient god. Meanwhile another guy wants to bring back another (evil?!) god.

Doctor Strange 2 - Multiverses are bad. Wanda is eeeeeeeevvvvvviiiiiilllllllll. A new (female) character is a walking talking MacGuffin that basically has no bearing on the plot at all and obviously, despite the above shitty video, isn't the **** point.

 

I've not watched Ms Marvel or Thor 4 yet, and She-Hulk I'll get to.

None of the above are without fault. Are those faults because they're white man hating woke fests designed to eat lovely white testicles raw? No. This is why they have faults

  Hide contents

WandaVision - looks to be setting up some really big stuff, then completely bottles it.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - the terrorism plot is underwritten and hopelessly badly cast. US Agent looks weird.

Black Widow - it's a pointless prequel, they mess up Taskmaster *shakes fist*

Shang-chi - the fantasy elements are a bit rubbish.

Loki - the multiverse stuff bogs everything down and it basically just builds to a big reveal which isn't that well done.

Eternals - it's shit... OK, it tries to tell a story in a single movie that doesn't have the time to develop and build the weight it needs to sell itself, it has awful, awful villains and appaling acting.

Hawkeye - very small scale to the point it feels a little lightweight (but generally I don't recall a great deal wrong with it)

Spider-man No Way Home - it trades heavily on nostalgia

Moon Knight - spends too long on it's 'mystery' and doesn't have enough action

Doctor Strange 2 - Wanda's evil turn is laughably extreme, the multiverse is barely used, it's very much a Raimi movie, which is like Marmite.

None of it is because it's woke. Lots of it is because they wrote bits badly. Thats it.

I haven't watched the video, I was just going off what I've heard previously, my interest in the MCU these days is pretty much zero.

Out of the list you mentioned though, aside from Spiderman, I watched WandaVision because Scarlett Witch was always one of my favourite Marvel characters, the series was terrible though, I think it was at that point that I completely checked out from the MCU.

I would have loved a Back Widow film but after End Game it was just completely pointless and all interest had gone.

[Rolta]

1 hour ago, ender4 said:

Has that actually happened with any MCU characters?

Possibly Thor 4 (as I haven’t seen it yet) so no spoilers of that one please.

Some people commenting don't actually watch the shows. They seem to just watch the most cynical moany YouTubers and write posts on here about it, though not necessarily in this thread.

[CVByrne]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

They aren't 'forcing' 'woke' stuff in to it. The shitty video linked is edited and written for a captive audience that wants there to be a woke agenda to everything so they can moan about it.

What they have done, is introduce new characters and versions of characters that aren't just men. A criticism of the MCU, particularly Phase 1 & 2, is it's a right old sausage fest and all the female characters are paper thin. They started to address this in Phase 3, when they started to build up some female characters and introduce some non-white characters. Phase 4 continues this.

The shitty video above portrays this as forced wokeness where everyones a Mary Sue and everyone is else is shit. When the reality is this isn't the case, and even the examples that video 'analysis' offers are bobbins. For reference, this is what Phase 4 looks like (spoilers for everything phase 4 to date)

  Reveal hidden contents

Wandavision - Wanda deals with grief and goes evil.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Falcon deals with being a hero who isn't 'super', the Captain America mantle, and being black in America. Bucky deals with his demons from being a brainwashed assassin for decades and the loss of his one true friend who could understand him. All this takes place against a terribly written and performed terrorism plot based around the idea of the problems of people coming back from the snap. This attempts to write a sympathetic villain, the shitty video claims this is 'glorifying terrorism'.

Black Widow - Fills in a gap in Black Widow's story (to no real point), where she takes down the Red Room, helped by another 'freed' Widow and her 'father'. Shock horror, the new Widow is very similarly skilled to the old one.

Shang-Chi - introduces a Chinese hero in a kung fu/Chinese fantasy story. It's fine.

Loki - fills in the gap relating to the 2012 Loki managing to escape during Endgame when the Avengers **** up getting the Tesseract, introducing the concept of multiverses and variant characters (i.e., there's loads of Lokis). One of them, a woman (*shocked exclaimation*) becomes a significant character. We eventually set up the new 'Thanos' of the series.

Eternals - is crap

Hawkeye - Hawkeye is struggling with getting old and having lost his friend in Endgame, and also with being the character nobody cares about. Meanwhile a young woman is also good with arrows but is hopeless naive.

Spider-man No Way Home - Multiverses are cool

Moon Knight - a mentally scarred boy creates a seperate personality to cope with his trauma, and then is imbued with power by an ancient god. Meanwhile another guy wants to bring back another (evil?!) god.

Doctor Strange 2 - Multiverses are bad. Wanda is eeeeeeeevvvvvviiiiiilllllllll. A new (female) character is a walking talking MacGuffin that basically has no bearing on the plot at all and obviously, despite the above shitty video, isn't the **** point.

 

I've not watched Ms Marvel or Thor 4 yet, and She-Hulk I'll get to.

None of the above are without fault. Are those faults because they're white man hating woke fests designed to eat lovely white testicles raw? No. This is why they have faults

  Reveal hidden contents

WandaVision - looks to be setting up some really big stuff, then completely bottles it.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - the terrorism plot is underwritten and hopelessly badly cast. US Agent looks weird.

Black Widow - it's a pointless prequel, they mess up Taskmaster *shakes fist*

Shang-chi - the fantasy elements are a bit rubbish.

Loki - the multiverse stuff bogs everything down and it basically just builds to a big reveal which isn't that well done.

Eternals - it's shit... OK, it tries to tell a story in a single movie that doesn't have the time to develop and build the weight it needs to sell itself, it has awful, awful villains and appaling acting.

Hawkeye - very small scale to the point it feels a little lightweight (but generally I don't recall a great deal wrong with it)

Spider-man No Way Home - it trades heavily on nostalgia

Moon Knight - spends too long on it's 'mystery' and doesn't have enough action

Doctor Strange 2 - Wanda's evil turn is laughably extreme, the multiverse is barely used, it's very much a Raimi movie, which is like Marmite.

None of it is because it's woke. Lots of it is because they wrote bits badly. Thats it.

You're right in parts but you're glossing over a big reason why Phase 4 is bad. It's nothing to do with the fact there are lots of female protagonists it's because of how they are written, majority are essentially various levels of Mary Sues and the reason they are written that way is driven by the political messaging they want to insert into them. They don't want the characters to have any real weaknesses.  It's the common theme in Phase 4 and all of Star Wars. 

It all just boils down to bad writing and badly written characters. 

[Chindie]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I don't know the channel, friend sent the video on. I do agree with many of the points she made. The lack of the heroes journey for the protagonists, the characters are born awesome and the movie arc is about the universe realising it, there's no strife. Also the bait and switches, everything is bait and switch with Disney these days. The tearing down of beloved male characters as a method to raise the new characters above them etc..

 

The lack of heroes journey? Of new characters...

Spoiler

Yelena is a Widow. We know they're trained. We don't need a journey. And her 'coming out' is literally her being confronted by committing a murder to order, her character from then on is looking to free her fellow Widows and come to terms with the fact her childhood was a lie.

Sylvie is a Loki who has, accidentally, discovered the truth behind an organisation 'policing' the timeline, and is fighting back to save herself and destroy the org. Her story is Lokis, and we get told what happens where it departs from his. She is also flawed - aggressive and distrustful to a paranoid degree.

Shang-Chi is a highly skilled martial artist, we learn he was forced to train by his evil dad. His journey in the film is address his, and his families past, and he gains new powers by the end.

The Eternals are crap. And you couldn't do a proper heroes journey when you decide to introduce 8 new heroes in a single film with a timescale in aeons.

Kate Bishop is a fan girl who wants to be a hero, who gets into trouble because her reach exceeds her grasp, despite being talented. She also is headstrong and as a result makes mistakes. Hawkeye helps her understand what being a hero means and does to you.

Moon Knight is about a man coming to terms with being nuts whilst also discovering he is nuts and saving the world.

America Chavez is a walking MacGuffin.

Bait and switches implies that the content is sold as one thing and becomes another - but it's not, really. They introduce new characters, some of them become important, so what? We also had years of people whinging about 'not another origin story' so they cut to the chase, in some cases they cut to the chase on characters we didn't even get an origin for in the first place (Hawkeye). It's not a bad thing.

Tearing down male characters? What? Thor became a comedic character because they discovered Hemsworth is a decent comic actor, they hired a comedy director/writer/actor to film it, and it became one of the most beloved films in the series. He's still **** Thor.