Chindie Posted August 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted August 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, CVByrne said: You're right in parts but you're glossing over a big reason why Phase 4 is bad. It's nothing to do with the fact there are lots of female protagonists it's because of how they are written, majority are essentially various levels of Mary Sues and the reason they are written that way is driven by the political messaging they want to insert into them. They don't want the characters to have any real weaknesses. It's the common theme in Phase 4 and all of Star Wars. It all just boils down to bad writing and badly written characters. They aren't Mary Sues, though, are they? They always have some flaws. Sylvie is ridiculously untrusting, aggressive and stubborn. Kate Bishop is hopelessly naive and headstrong to the extent of making mistakes that hurt people. America Chavez is barely a character, and the plot partially revolves around her having a power that she can't control, the film ending with her struggling to do the same crap Doctor Strange struggled with when he discovered the sorcerors. Honestly the cynical preaching to the crowd of that video makes my blood boil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Chindie said: They aren't Mary Sues, though, are they? They always have some flaws. Sylvie is ridiculously untrusting, aggressive and stubborn. Kate Bishop is hopelessly naive and headstrong to the extent of making mistakes that hurt people. America Chavez is barely a character, and the plot partially revolves around her having a power that she can't control, the film ending with her struggling to do the same crap Doctor Strange struggled with when he discovered the sorcerors. Honestly the cynical preaching to the crowd of that video makes my blood boil. Unfortunately @CVByrne just watches the YouTubes and not the shows. So they're only quoting what the YouTubers say. I had a similar confusing conversation about Obi wan and it was like he (hadn't watched) a completely different show to me (Obi wan was shit though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted August 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Rolta said: Unfortunately @CVByrne just watches the YouTubes and not the shows. So they're only quoting what the YouTubers say. I had a similar confusing conversation about Obi wan and it was like he (hadn't watched) a completely different show to me (Obi wan was shit though). I wont disagree that Obi-wan was badly written. I don't even like the character that all those Youtubers hate. She's crap and badly performed. But the criticism she's a Mary Sue is nonsense. She has powers, yes, but she's written as a headstrong idiot. Just because you have all the power in the world doesn't mean you can't be flawed. I've grown to really, really hate the cottage industry of social media influencers that cottoned on to the fact theres a lovely audience dying to devour derision at their favourite things for going 'woke' because they started to move away from 'generic guy' focus characters. And it's not like we don't still have those characters either. There's probably billions to be made knocking out bad faith shit about Black Panther 2 having Ironheart in it... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemond2008 Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, Rolta said: Unfortunately @CVByrne just watches the YouTubes and not the shows. So they're only quoting what the YouTubers say. I had a similar confusing conversation about Obi wan and it was like he (hadn't watched) a completely different show to me (Obi wan was shit though). I'm with CVByrne in that I only pick up dribs and drabs online and the videos that are mostly pushed in my recommended shit on youtube are the ones slating it, I don't form an opinion based on them because I haven't seen them, it is a very popular narrative from what I've seen though, I haven't seen many online reviews that have praised new MCU releases. Anyways...aside from the woke bullshiterry Did I see something that a character has actually been made into a mutant so that they can re-introduce X-Men? I can't remember which character it was now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 1 minute ago, leemond2008 said: I'm with CVByrne in that I only pick up dribs and drabs online and the videos that are mostly pushed in my recommended shit on youtube are the ones slating it, I don't form an opinion based on them because I haven't seen them, it is a very popular narrative from what I've seen though, I haven't seen many online reviews that have praised new MCU releases. Anyways...aside from the woke bullshiterry Did I see something that a character has actually been made into a mutant so that they can re-introduce X-Men? I can't remember which character it was now. Ms Marvel is a mutant now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: Any one aatched she hulk yet? I was ginna start on ms marvel but everyone is telling me its really crap I've watched episode 1of She Hulk. It's not great TV, but I didn't hate it. It reminds me of the sort of TV I watched as a kid on a Saturday afternoon (1980's). It's lightweight family entertainment, bright and colourful with a bit of predictable humour. Lightweight is probably the operative word. If you enjoyed Bird on a Wire or Failure to Launch then this could be right up your street. It's chewing gum for the mind, lots of mastication with no sustenance. 5 out of ten, bang average TV. The Boys is way better, the scooter gang episode of the book of Boba is way worse. If gritty or dark or grounded or realistic or original or powerful are things you have to have then avoid cos it is none of those. I enjoyed the throwback feel to it though. It's harmless family fun and isn't really trying to be much more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, leemond2008 said: I'm with CVByrne in that I only pick up dribs and drabs online and the videos that are mostly pushed in my recommended shit on youtube are the ones slating it, I don't form an opinion based on them because I haven't seen them, it is a very popular narrative from what I've seen though, I haven't seen many online reviews that have praised new MCU releases. Anyways...aside from the woke bullshiterry Did I see something that a character has actually been made into a mutant so that they can re-introduce X-Men? I can't remember which character it was now. As with Marvel from the beginning there is a big mixture of good and bad. There's been some really great stuff...Spiderman 3, Hawkeye for example, and some meh. I haven't seen anything other then the first Ms Marvel. I will watch it—I'm not it's target audience, just like I'm not the target audience of the comic, but it's not woke just because there's a Muslim girl character (I know you're not saying that, but some people are). There can be a broad range of stories when it comes to superheroes after all and Disney don't just make shows for thirty year old men (though their best shows work for everyone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted August 24, 2022 10 minutes ago, leemond2008 said: I'm with CVByrne in that I only pick up dribs and drabs online and the videos that are mostly pushed in my recommended shit on youtube are the ones slating it, I don't form an opinion based on them because I haven't seen them, it is a very popular narrative from what I've seen though, I haven't seen many online reviews that have praised new MCU releases. The danger of the algorithm. Once it thinks you fancy watching one bit of 'wokeism all up in my shit and I hate it', it'll keep feeding you more and more of it. which gives the impression that thats ALL thats being said, when it's not. I wont deny that Phase 4 of the MCU has been a bit rubbish. But we know why it's been rubbish, and it's not because it's 'gone woke'. It's a combination of the fallout of Endgame, where the series had a full stop put on it for a lot of people, a lot of epilogue-y/continuity content, some bad writing generally, and messing with concepts that are often bad (multiverses) whilst also not really having a defined arc yet. It's got a lot in common with Phase 2, just without the real great stuff Phase 2 had inbetween the meh. It's still mostly decent watching, but it's not the level it was. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 18 minutes ago, Rolta said: As with Marvel from the beginning there is a big mixture of good and bad. There's been some really great stuff...Spiderman 3, Hawkeye for example, and some meh. I haven't seen anything other then the first Ms Marvel. I will watch it—I'm not it's target audience, just like I'm not the target audience of the comic, but it's not woke just because there's a Muslim girl character (I know you're not saying that, but some people are). There can be a broad range of stories when it comes to superheroes after all and Disney don't just make shows for thirty year old men (though their best shows work for everyone). I've two friends who are massive MCU fans and have watched everything they've produced and they've watched all the Star Wars. They have bemoaned the Phase 4 and pretty much everything bar Mandelorian in Star Wars. They've basically come to the conclusion and sent me a few YouTube videos in a group chat basically saying "nailed it" etc.. about why. They're the mega fans and they seem to be clear on the cause of the bad writing. Anyway it's been a big failure for Disney all of this. So they'll have to change it to try win these fans back. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 11 hours ago, ender4 said: Has that actually happened with any MCU characters? Possibly Thor 4 (as I haven’t seen it yet) so no spoilers of that one please. For about 50 years in the comics... Cant you remember the woke outrage when over dark phoenix being more powerful than professor x? The only male character they've lined up to be directly replaced with a female character is Hawkeye I think Phase 4 has its issues but these characters exist outside of Disney+, it doesn't need a label and especially not a guff one They've gone too scattergun with the characters without an obvious coming together endpoint, it's set around multiverses which isn't interesting for me personally and seemingly a lot of other people and all the while it's badly written in general 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 10 hours ago, Chindie said: Honestly the cynical preaching to the crowd of that video makes my blood boil. That entire channel is a MAGA sulk fest . Most of the videos are slagging off Meghan Markle and 100% is not created by a female . They are using that voice to speech programme shit all propaganda channels use. I'm surprised any human would fall for it let alone a Villa fan. it's right wing cringe for men with no brains. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) On 24/08/2022 at 23:05, CVByrne said: I've two friends who are massive MCU fans and have watched everything they've produced and they've watched all the Star Wars. They have bemoaned the Phase 4 and pretty much everything bar Mandelorian in Star Wars. They've basically come to the conclusion and sent me a few YouTube videos in a group chat basically saying "nailed it" etc.. about why. They're the mega fans and they seem to be clear on the cause of the bad writing. Anyway it's been a big failure for Disney all of this. So they'll have to change it to try win these fans back. I just saw this. So you're also moaning about the MCU phase 4 when you haven't seen it, to add to you moaning about Obi Wan when you haven't seen it. I don't want this to come across badly, so I want to say your posts on topic I genuinely think are often pretty spot on, and I'm really surprised you can't see how biased you seem and how odd it is because you haven't watched any of the shows and all because of someone else's opinion on YouTube, someone who is clearly a hard right wind up merchant. I hated Obi Wan, but when you say the whole show existed to create the Reva character it shows you didn't see it. And Marvel Phase 4 has a lot of good stuff, and a lot of it is stuff your YouTube commentators clearly also haven't watched. She Hulk and Ms Marvel are genuinely good shows—they're probably not aimed soley at 30-40 year old men, but that doesn't make them bad. Neither of them are Mary Sues, as I think you suggested in another post. They struggle with their powers, they have weaknesses. In fact, looking at Marvel Phase 4, of the 8 TV shows released so far, and the 6 films, I'd say there's only two real duds: Eternals and Moon Knight. If you actually watch a show like Hawkeye you'd realise that it's legitimately good, full of character and heart, and it really helps develop one character more than any other: Hawkeye. Same for Wandavision—it's loads of fun. Same for Loki, which is probably the best of all of them. The fact that there's a female Loki makes sense in the story, and she is a great addition. And still the main focus is Loki. Obi Wan—the main focus is on...Obi Wan and Anakin, not as your YouTuber suggested, the 'woke, minority character aimed at replacing the legacy characters' (I'm paraphrasing what you said). And the show is shit anyway—and not shit because, shock horror, they included a black female character. Sometimes I do think there's a bit of forced diversity in the background of some of the worlds in the Star Wars TV shows (most notable on Boba Fett), but that's it. That's the only thing they do that I think is a bit forced and blatant and inconsistent with the world building. But the main thing is, Obi Wan is bad because they hired bad writers, or they didn't give them enough time. And the wind-up YouTubers see there's a black female character and construct a narrative to wind up whoever they can. When you say this has been 'a big failure for Disney all of this' I wonder what metric you're using? Sure, Disney have **** up Star Wars beyond repair, and they have done so from the very beginning, for hiring all the wrong people and having no vision or plan—but the MCU? The MCU keeps bringing out mid-to-high quality, character-fuelled TV shows and films, a bar that has never really dropped. There are misfires, but there have been misfires from the very beginning too. Some of the best stuff has come out in Phase 4, including Spiderman No Way Home, Wandavision, Loki, Hawkeye. The TV shows, including the female led shows like Ms Marvel and She Hulk, have been a breath of fresh air—they've allowed the MCU to move away from the formula of the films and to give more space for actual characterisation, which they mostly do very well. People really are on the wind up with this stuff, and they love to connect all the dots and blame it on the lamest word they've used yet: woke. Rey from Star Wars is a complete Mary Sue, 100%, but she came from the mind of the idiot JJ Abrams, who also wrote Tom Cruise in his Mission Impossible film as someone also without weakness. The YouTube wind up merchants love to oversimplify things and connect all the disparate dots, and ignore anything that contradicts what they are saying, but they are being disingenuous—and it's them as much as anyone who has an agenda. And it's pretty much an attempt at gatekeeping what is acceptable for a superhero show. Edited September 4, 2022 by Rolta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 7 minutes ago, Rolta said: I hated Obi Wan, but when you say the whole show existed to create the Reva character it shows you didn't see it. Going OT here but I've seen that suggestion about reva a few times and it's nonsense Spoiler “I am not your failure, Obi-Wan. You didn’t kill Anakin Skywalker. I did" The show exists for that line It doesn't work or pay off because its a poor show but that it what the whole thing is about, guilt and redemption 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 (edited) I'm completely fine with She Hulk and think the backlash is pretty pathetic...but they drop two of the biggest spoilers for The Sopranos in episode 4. I still have one more season to go in the Sopranos, and they pretty much say the ending, or at least one of the biggest things I didn't need to know. That's so out of order. She Hulk is by design pretty lite entertainment, and that was a terrible decision. Edited September 10, 2022 by Rolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 They've only shown a sizzle reel at D23 so far which I don't think said anything new They have done the games presentation though, the game from the ex uncharted director is a captain America black panther crossover game with the blurb King captain soldier spy, looked like 4 playable characters across 2 time periods, CAs in WW2, then more on the mobile phone card game marvel snap which I'm sure will be ridiculously popular and then midnight suns is back to be released this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewiek2 Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 5 hours ago, villa4europe said: They've only shown a sizzle reel at D23 so far which I don't think said anything new They have done the games presentation though, the game from the ex uncharted director is a captain America black panther crossover game with the blurb King captain soldier spy, looked like 4 playable characters across 2 time periods, CAs in WW2, then more on the mobile phone card game marvel snap which I'm sure will be ridiculously popular and then midnight suns is back to be released this year 6-8pm tonight is the real reveal. MCU, Lucasfilm and Fox panels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjsg Posted September 10, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2022 16 hours ago, Rolta said: I'm completely fine with She Hulk and think the backlash is pretty pathetic...but they drop two of the biggest spoilers for The Sopranos in episode 4. I still have one more season to go in the Sopranos, and they pretty much say the ending, or at least one of the biggest things I didn't need to know. That's so out of order. She Hulk is by design pretty lite entertainment, and that was a terrible decision. Nah that’s like saying Jack died in Titanic is a spoiler. I think the statute on spoilers has way gone at 15 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted September 10, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2022 Finally revealed, the Halloween special they'd been working on. I think that might be a reveal of Man-Thing as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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villa4europe Posted September 11, 2022 Share Posted September 11, 2022 Olivia Coleman! Wasn't expecting that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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