omariqy Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, Stevo985 said: I disagree. Playing defensive =/= playing for the draw Playing not to lose is not the same as playing for the draw. It generally means to try and not concede and try and nick it. It's a very negative tactic and rarely works, especially at home with our crowd. Can I also add I thought the crowd were terrible. Just moaned at everything and got on the players backs then people leaving on the 85th minute when it is 1-1. Atrocious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, omariqy said: Playing not to lose is not the same as playing for the draw. It generally means to try and not concede and try and nick it. It's a very negative tactic and rarely works, especially at home with our crowd. Can I also add I thought the crowd were terrible. Just moaned at everything and got on the players backs then people leaving on the 85th minute when it is 1-1. Atrocious. Eh? (bolded) Yeah I agree about the crowd. The atmosphere was toxic after about 15 minutes. Edited February 21, 2018 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Eh? (bolded) Yeah I agree about the crowd. The atmosphere was toxic after about 15 minutes. If you haven't lost a game then you have either won it or drawn it. What I am saying is when people mention playing not to lose then generally it means we are playing a certain way i.e. keeping it tight and not expansive. Obviously you want to win every match but there are different ways to go about it. At home, yesterday, we went about it completely in the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, omariqy said: If you haven't lost a game then you have either won it or drawn it. What I am saying is when people mention playing not to lose then generally it means we are playing a certain way i.e. keeping it tight and not expansive. Obviously you want to win every match but there are different ways to go about it. At home, yesterday, we went about it completely in the wrong way. OK. My definition would be that playing "not to lose" means you're not trying to win the game. I don't think Bruce has ever set us up without the sole intention of winning the game. But that intention doesn't always translate to ATTACK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: OK. My definition would be that playing "not to lose" means you're not trying to win the game. I don't think Bruce has ever set us up without the sole intention of winning the game. But that intention doesn't always translate to ATTACK! Are there any teams that really try not to win? I'd say that's incredibly rare. Surely even the most defensive set up would still try and nick a goal from a set piece or counter. I'm not saying that bruce doesn't want us to win, there are just occassions where not losing seems to be the primary game plan and nicking a win is the bonus. It felt like this most games last season where we relied on kodjia to create that one moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 21 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Eh? (bolded) Yeah I agree about the crowd. The atmosphere was toxic after about 15 minutes. It doesn't help our plight, but can you really blame them? Expectations obviously went through the roof given the run we just had. Bruce with his wealth of experience should know better... once you 'deliver', the fans will no longer accept these turgid, ultra-defensive displays, regardless of injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted February 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, vreitti said: It doesn't help our plight, but can you really blame them? Yes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Are there any teams that really try not to win? I'd say that's incredibly rare. Surely even the most defensive set up would still try and nick a goal from a set piece or counter. I'm not saying that bruce doesn't want us to win, there are just occassions where not losing seems to be the primary game plan and nicking a win is the bonus. It felt like this most games last season where we relied on kodjia to create that one moment. Again I disagree. I agree that sometimes his formation means that we end up on the backfoot and have to defend more than we'd like. But you're talking about intention. I don't think Bruce ever sends us out intending to defend and "nick something" if we can, even if that's how the game ends up panning out. That doesn't mean his focus is sometimes more on defending than others. Of course it is. And it also doesn't mean sometimes we aren't too defensive. Of course we are. Edited February 21, 2018 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, vreitti said: It doesn't help our plight, but can you really blame them? Expectations obviously went through the roof given the run we just had. Bruce with his wealth of experience should know better... once you 'deliver', the fans will no longer accept these turgid, ultra-defensive displays, regardless of injuries. I'm sorry but the players deserve to be backed and not hounded on when we play it across the back, especially after how they have given their all in the last 8 or so games. We were flat from the beginning. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmark86 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, vreitti said: It doesn't help our plight, but can you really blame them? Expectations obviously went through the roof given the run we just had. Bruce with his wealth of experience should know better... once you 'deliver', the fans will no longer accept these turgid, ultra-defensive displays, regardless of injuries. considering we're on a run of 9 games with 1 defeat I would say it's a resounding 'yes'. how do we as fans possibly help 'the cause' by being negative and getting on the players' backs? take a hypothetical worker that is struggling a bit with his current tasks but has had a pretty decent output up until this point. His manager calls him out for being incompetent. will that motivate the worker? what if his manager offered him some form of support instead? booing and sneering is so **** detrimental and toxic. think it, don't jeer it. Edited February 21, 2018 by osmark86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 We just need to get it together. Where Bruce may not be getting it right, the 12th man is vitally important. Entering such a key stage of the run in and we really really should be beating teams like Preston North end. But rather than pin the blame all in the manager, why cannot the players being given a chance not come in and slot in and make a difference to warrant cementing a place in the team? These displays are not acceptable. If we really happen to be pinning all our hopes on the fact that Jack Grealish is now suddenly our hopes of promoting us then some could be in for an unpleasant journey. It shows what one injury to him does to a team. Expecting him to go through the remaining 13/12 games whenever he is back and not get seriously clobbered again somewhere is brave mans money. I don't like the fact of this and believe the rest of the players need to step up in these times and deliver instead of the shambolic last two displays on the pitch that have been witnessed. We have been to the moon and back of Bruce and his no plan B's etc but why always about Bruce? There is a whole backroom of some very very good coach's at this level in there and some very decent players too and to think now everyone is looking round at each other saying what do we do now is unacceptable. Bruce needs to make some swift tweaking changes and shuffle things around a little as now is not the time to be playing defensive and close up, for me he needs to learn to be braver and just go for it for one game and see. Collectively, everyone needs to regroup and turn it around with changes added in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, omariqy said: I'm sorry but the players deserve to be backed and not hounded on when we play it across the back, especially after how they have given their all in the last 8 or so games. We were flat from the beginning. And we really do not need to be. Look at it, The players we have on our current entire squad and who is most effective where in playing their natural position. The dynamics don't always suit and it's finding the flow that does combined with an equal balance etc. The players at our disposal really could be played and utilised in many areas of their best abilities. One example is of Elmo. To me he is a versatile DR/DWB who is attacking minded and has great link up play with Snoddy. Tuanzebe who is also versatile across many positions but is more of a defensive minded playmaker if you will, can do a job at DR, but not his best position and we suddenly lose that attacking threat down that right hand side that Elmo offers and Snoddy does not quick get the same game from Tuanzebe as he would Elmo. Being setup defensively is fine, but you cannot play attacking minded football at the same time or there will be games that are just a shambles and that we have not turned up for. Play to our strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Cardiff will win tonight I think. 4 points isn't ideal but still manageable. It gets any higher in next few weeks and that's a disaster. I did say in the build up to the SHA game I wondered how we'd react once we were second and were the hunted team. Injuries haven't helped but it seems mentally we've gone into our shells a bit. You look at this season though...Cardiff comfortably second and then lose four in a row over xmas. Derby get second in January and then completely lose form and now we lose form. There is no standout second team this season, still plenty of twists and turns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 The fans need to get off their backs be more supportive, we have been on unbelievable form esp at home, give them a break. yes it was poor but just getting on their backs after one poor home win against a play off rival yes i am not happy about the performance but i wont start slating the team after that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villianusa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I haven’t seen either of the last two games due to work commitments, but it seems everyone (including Bruce), see that the creativity is missing. Jack and Albert have missed the last two games, while Elmo and Snodgrass have missed partial parts of the game s due to injury or illness. Our first team is short on creativity from the start, with very little to come in an replace the players I mentioned earlier. We have a lot more defensive minded midfielders than attack minded. These means if Albert and Jack miss too many more games, I feel we will end up in a playoff position at the end of the season. Hogan’s resurgence was in part the creativity around him, with that gone, so as much of his effectiveness. In my opinion, to prevent this, Bruce must do one of two things: 1. Bring in some of the attack minded players we have in the U23’s and see if they can fill the gaps in the formation that was successful a couple of games ago. It isn’t working with the players he is trying to fit in, so I don’t believe we would do any worse. Supplement the youngsters with the most relatable players and stop playing players because who aren’t performing. O’Hare needs to be given a chance before any loan players in my mind. 2. Change the formation - with the players. Bruce is using the way we played tactically suits them better. We need to go 442 and play the longer ball, and I would start Hogan with one of two who came on in the second half. The problem with this option, if the team haven’t practiced it, it may take time for it to settle and we don’t have this at the present time. We are in a similar position team wise when Grealish wasn’t injured last time and we saw how those games went and how much we were able to create. Add Albert and the others on top and it doesn’t look very bright. For me, Bruce needs to show his worth now, he needs to make the big decisions, tactical tweets to stop this mini slide. We don’t have the time at this time in the season to fall to much further behind. The good and the bad that has gone this season doesn’t matter anymore. He has 15 games to save his reputation, our future, and his job. All the best Steve, you are going to need it if those players don’t get fit soon. For me, I would bring in a couple of youngsters to give us a spark in the final third. Go for it, give the players a chance to succeed and not just complain about lack of creativity and fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 hour ago, osmark86 said: considering we're on a run of 9 games with 1 defeat I would say it's a resounding 'yes'. how do we as fans possibly help 'the cause' by being negative and getting on the players' backs? take a hypothetical worker that is struggling a bit with his current tasks but has had a pretty decent output up until this point. His manager calls him out for being incompetent. will that motivate the worker? what if his manager offered him some form of support instead? booing and sneering is so **** detrimental and toxic. think it, don't jeer it. I wholeheartedly agree, but I still can understand the fans not being happy with yesterday's performance. Bruce seriously needs to think about it imho. He didn't set up to play the kind of football that we need to play in order to get promoted. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farlz Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Looking at our next 3 games, anything less than 9 points is not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 6 hours ago, Demitri_C said: It wasn't a good performance very prop in fact. But we absolutely had no creative spark any side would be In trouble of that happened. The one thing i will say fingers crossed it doesn't sound like it will be long term injuroes as bruce woukdnt answer been they will be back. Might be touch and go injuries. Snodds was just ill so hopefully that wont be too serious. But we are struggling. Bruce needs to start using lansbury. He is quite creative and hasnt had a look in and it's been unfair. He was very good against Leeds then started one game and then hasnt played at all I do agree about the creative spark and any team would miss a Grealish.....but he is not just better than the rest, he is a country mile better. We can talk about missing players and it comes across like a plethora of excuses....We need to man up. But I saw Preston players doing things that if the likes of Hourihane and Lansbury were doing it ....they would be heroes.....We have too many who are not quite good enough and to make matters much worse, think they are good enough , by their lack of combatitve spirit. You have to fight in this league not just turn up.....and teams flirting with 2/3 place you expect that from. good job, I never went in the dressing room afterwards.....I would have done a Warnock on them. and Davis's miss.......well I pass .......******* sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, TRO said: I do agree about the creative spark and any team would miss a Grealish.....but he is not just better than the rest, he is a country mile better. We can talk about missing players and it comes across like a plethora of excuses....We need to man up. But I saw Preston players doing things that if the likes of Hourihane and Lansbury were doing it ....they would be heroes.....We have too many who are not quite good enough and to make matters much worse, think they are good enough , by their lack of combatitve spirit. You have to fight in this league not just turn up.....and teams flirting with 2/3 place you expect that from. good job, I never went in the dressing room afterwards.....I would have done a Warnock on them. and Davis's miss.......well I pass .......******* sloppy. Always always the players. The amount of times you’d have given them the hair drier none would want to play for you !! The reason PNE played how they did is because that’s how they have been coached and drilled to play, just like Fulham at the weekend. The reason we don’t is because we haven’t been, we use a different approach entirely which is based around (a) being tight, (b)not overly worrying about having the ball, and (c)relying on individual moments. Its worked recently but has key components missing so we are left with (a) and (b). Yes there were some below par performances and a missed chance but hey !! Just like the ‘mistakes cost us’ argument these are red herrings they happen to every team....in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, vreitti said: I wholeheartedly agree, but I still can understand the fans not being happy with yesterday's performance. Bruce seriously needs to think about it imho. He didn't set up to play the kind of football that we need to play in order to get promoted. Simple as that. Whilst true I don’t think the performance created the crowds antipathy it was there from the off. Very very subdued, as poor as I remember. Im in the back of the upper upper holt e and enjoy singing for most of most games, but I was hoarse after 20 minutes trying to get some oomph going yesterday it was very very quiet, which quickly translated into dissatisfaction. Having said that as soon as they were given some crumbs of energy and attacking intent to watch second half they picked up. Certainly no crowd would get excited at that first half or the second half on Saturday, we simply have to find a way to take the game to the opposition without JG and AA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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