Sam Johnstone

[rodders0223]

17 hours ago, Tommo_b said:

Maybe they see his potential in training and know he will be a top top keeper in a few years? 

More than likely they fancy going down the Chelsea route by keeping players on their books for half a decade raking in loan fees before selling them on.

[Nigel]

22 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

From what I've been told he isn't for sale  in the summer.

So I'm expecting us to look elsewhere.

That's exactly what I'd say if I saw a bloke with the kind of money to spend that Tony has!

[bobzy]

19 hours ago, BOF said:

In @PieFacE's defence, if I'm reading him right, he's not writing Johnstone off.  He just wants an absolute sure thing for next season.  You say yourself that Johnstone 'could' do a solid job.  PieFacE wants someone who 'absolutely will' do a solid job.  Tried and trusted etc etc.  We need to be going up next season so we need to be removing as many potential pitfalls as possible.  Obviously PieFacE thinks a relatively inexperienced goalkeeper is a risk too far.

There's no such thing as a "sure thing" - the greatest asset a goalkeeper has is working with a settled backline.  We've seen huge mistakes from pretty much every goalkeeper in World football and, indeed, at the top end of the Premier League (and Championship) this season.

Johnstone's record at Aston Villa with recent form is good.  It's "tried and trusted".  I don't see any keeper being a "sure thing" - better goalkeepers?  Sure.  But then you remove any understanding that the current backline has.

[BOF]

Just now, bobzy said:

There's no such thing as a "sure thing" - the greatest asset a goalkeeper has is working with a settled backline.  We've seen huge mistakes from pretty much every goalkeeper in World football and, indeed, at the top end of the Premier League (and Championship) this season.

Johnstone's record at Aston Villa with recent form is good.  It's "tried and trusted".  I don't see any keeper being a "sure thing" - better goalkeepers?  Sure.  But then you remove any understanding that the current backline has.

Yep, no such thing as a sure thing, so you play the percentages.  You try to make it as 'sure' as you possibly can.  Bringing in a better goalkeeper as you say would be one way.  Bringing in more experience (obviously including the required quality) would be another.  But any way, it's PieFacE's argument, not mine.  I'm sitting on the fence on the Johnstone discussion because I genuinely haven't seen enough of him to go either way.

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Johnstone's record at Aston Villa with recent form is good.  It's "tried and trusted". 

I disagree.

It's too small a sample size.

He's been good the past few games, but it's not like he's been singlehandedly keeping these cleans sheets. They've been good defensive displays to which he's contributed.
Plus they're only a few games. He could quite easily regress between now and the end of the season, who knows.

I hope he continues to improve and if he does then I hope it's with us. but whilst you're right in that there is no such thing as a sure thing, there are much more likely "things" than Johnstone.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I disagree.

It's too small a sample size.

He's been good the past few games, but it's not like he's been singlehandedly keeping these cleans sheets. They've been good defensive displays to which he's contributed.
Plus they're only a few games. He could quite easily regress between now and the end of the season, who knows.

I hope he continues to improve and if he does then I hope it's with us. but whilst you're right in that there is no such thing as a sure thing, there are much more likely "things" than Johnstone.

I think you are right about the sample size and the uncertainty.

I just have a gut feeling, this is going to turn out well and he will be the keeper we want.

just unsure they will sell for a reasonable price.

[bobzy]

12 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I disagree.

It's too small a sample size.

He's been good the past few games, but it's not like he's been singlehandedly keeping these cleans sheets. They've been good defensive displays to which he's contributed.
Plus they're only a few games. He could quite easily regress between now and the end of the season, who knows.

I hope he continues to improve and if he does then I hope it's with us. but whilst you're right in that there is no such thing as a sure thing, there are much more likely "things" than Johnstone.

So it's too small a sample size to say he'd be fine, but an absolutely fine sample size beforehand to say "he's not good enough"?  Yeah, ok.

The defence has been equally terrible in games where Johnstone has conceded goals.  In some games he's made errors, in others he's made good saves.  Overall, he hasn't conceded many goals and will have established a relationship of sorts with the defence in front of him.  At £3m, IMO, he'd be a decent purchase.

I can't remember who it was, but someone has been championing Rob Green as a signing - very similar goalkeeper.  At times, he's great.  At other times, he makes absolute clangers.  He's more known for the clangers.  I just don't see the benefit of swapping up to go for uncertainty yet again.

 

(If Johnstone was available for sale, of course).

Edited March 29, 2017 by bobzy

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

So it's too small a sample size to say he'd be fine, but an absolutely fine sample size beforehand to say "he's not good enough"?  Yeah, ok.

The defence has been equally terrible in games where Johnstone has conceded goals.  In some games he's made errors, in others he's made good saves.  Overall, he hasn't conceded many goals and will have established a relationship of sorts with the defence in front of him.  At £3m, IMO, he'd be a decent purchase.

I can't remember who it was, but someone has been championing Rob Green as a signing - very similar goalkeeper.  At times, he's great.  At other times, he makes absolute clangers.  He's more known for the clangers.  I just don't see the benefit of swapping up to go for uncertainty yet again.

 

(If Johnstone was available for sale, of course).

On your first question, yes because the amount of bad games he's had isn't good enough over a full season let alone the half a season he's been here. Now that might be down to settling in and nerves and if it is then fair enough and I hope that's the case, but it still makes it a gamble that that MIGHT be the case.

 

It was me championing Rob Green. You might know him more for the clangers but the past few seasons at this level he's been consistently one of the best keepers in the league. Johnstone may go on to be better, but that's such a gamble at this stage there's no way you can say that with any sort of confidence based on the last 5 or 6 games.

 

Just to reiterate, £3m would make Johnstone the 3rd most expensive keeper in Championship history. And one of the people ahead of him is Gollini! You really don't think we could get someone better, or more of a "sure thing"?

[bobzy]

10 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

On your first question, yes because the amount of bad games he's had isn't good enough over a full season let alone the half a season he's been here. Now that might be down to settling in and nerves and if it is then fair enough and I hope that's the case, but it still makes it a gamble that that MIGHT be the case.

It was me championing Rob Green. You might know him more for the clangers but the past few seasons at this level he's been consistently one of the best keepers in the league. Johnstone may go on to be better, but that's such a gamble at this stage there's no way you can say that with any sort of confidence based on the last 5 or 6 games.

Just to reiterate, £3m would make Johnstone the 3rd most expensive keeper in Championship history. And one of the people ahead of him is Gollini! You really don't think we could get someone better, or more of a "sure thing"?

I'm curious - how many "bad games" has he actually had?  He's definitely made mistakes, I'm just not sure that "the amount of bad games he's had isn't good enough over a full season, let alone the half a season he's been here".

Interesting view on Rob Green - because, apparently, he has "made more errors that have led to a goal than any other Championship player since the start of last season" (link here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/efl/2240553/leeds-united-keeper-rob-green-has-made-more-errors-that-have-led-to-a-goal-than-any-other-championship-player-since-the-start-of-last-season/ ).  How is he more qualified?  Just because he's played more games?

Your last point is just odd.  Could we get someone better?  Yes, we could.  Who is this magical "sure thing", though?  I'm perfectly happy with a defensive unit that works well together.  Taking part of that away is anti-"sure thing".

Edited March 29, 2017 by bobzy

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I'm curious - how many "bad games" has he actually had?  He's definitely made mistakes, I'm just not sure that "the amount of bad games he's had isn't good enough over a full season, let alone the half a season he's been here".

Interesting view on Rob Green - because, apparently, he has "made more errors that have led to a goal than any other Championship player since the start of last season" (link here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/efl/2240553/leeds-united-keeper-rob-green-has-made-more-errors-that-have-led-to-a-goal-than-any-other-championship-player-since-the-start-of-last-season/ ).  How is he more qualified?  Just because he's played more games?

Your last point is just odd.  Could we get someone better?  Yes, we could.  Who is this magical "sure thing", though?  I'm perfectly happy with a defensive unit that works well together.  Taking part of that away is anti-"sure thing".

Again, I've specifically said there's no such thing as a sure thing.

But clearly there are keepers more "sure" than someone who's had 5 or 6 good games. That's really the only point I was making.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Stevo985

[Grasshopper]

13 hours ago, bobzy said:

There's no such thing as a "sure thing" - the greatest asset a goalkeeper has is working with a settled backline.  We've seen huge mistakes from pretty much every goalkeeper in World football and, indeed, at the top end of the Premier League (and Championship) this season.

Johnstone's record at Aston Villa with recent form is good.  It's "tried and trusted".  I don't see any keeper being a "sure thing" - better goalkeepers?  Sure.  But then you remove any understanding that the current backline has.

The sure thing is that Chester Baker Taylor Bree & Jedi's understanding is that the guy behind them

doesnt come off his line, doesnt catch the ball, tries to punch it, doesnt save shots and his kicking is shite

Edited March 30, 2017 by Grasshopper

[bobzy]

5 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

The sure thing is that Chester Baker Taylor Bree & Jedi's understanding is that the guy behind them

doesnt come off his line, doesnt catch the ball, tries to punch it, doesnt save shots and his kicking is shite

You're right, he does have a 0% save ratio.

Let's conveniently ignore the 3 occasions in 2 games where Chester just decided to walk out of position, costing us a goal each time. It was probably Johnstone's fault anyway. 

Yawn. 

[kurtsimonw]

On 28/03/2017 at 17:38, BOF said:

In @PieFacE's defence, if I'm reading him right, he's not writing Johnstone off.  He just wants an absolute sure thing for next season.  You say yourself that Johnstone 'could' do a solid job.  PieFacE wants someone who 'absolutely will' do a solid job.  Tried and trusted etc etc.  We need to be going up next season so we need to be removing as many potential pitfalls as possible.  Obviously PieFacE thinks a relatively inexperienced goalkeeper is a risk too far.

Pretty much. He's only been here half a season and let in a bunch of soft goals. I also can only think of one save he's made that wasn't completely routine - Bent header - and even that was hit at him. 

Combine that with his lack of command and, without exaggeration, the worst kicking I've seen in a keeper, I would be really disappointed if we made an effort to sign him permanently. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

22 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I disagree.

It's too small a sample size.

He's been good the past few games, but it's not like he's been singlehandedly keeping these cleans sheets. They've been good defensive displays to which he's contributed.
Plus they're only a few games. He could quite easily regress between now and the end of the season, who knows.

I hope he continues to improve and if he does then I hope it's with us. but whilst you're right in that there is no such thing as a sure thing, there are much more likely "things" than Johnstone.

I've read that a few times and to be honest it almost smacks of people looking for an excuse to not give credit where it's due. Not necessarily you Stevo, I tend to believe you aren't wired that way, but it's a general feel I get. 

5 clean sheets from 6 games is massive in anyone's book and they ALL deserve credit for it, Johnstone as much as anyone considering he did single-handedly keep the clean sheet against Wigan. Performances like that are as crucial as Kodjia scissor kicking one in to the bag in front of the Holte End.

When called upon he has pulled off the saves he should make, along with a couple of excellent ones. He has commanded his box, more catching less punching. Hard to tell what his relationship is like with the back line. He still has a ways to go before declaring him the next saviour, it is a small sample size but it aligns with what we heard of him before he came.

Impressive turnaround. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Poor signing for many, many reasons. His awful form and errors early on helped to cost us a playoff place, now that he's actually showing some decent form we can't even sign him if we wanted to. Struggle to see the point in this entire exercise.

[Stevo985]

28 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I've read that a few times and to be honest it almost smacks of people looking for an excuse to not give credit where it's due. Not necessarily you Stevo, I tend to believe you aren't wired that way, but it's a general feel I get. 

5 clean sheets from 6 games is massive in anyone's book and they ALL deserve credit for it, Johnstone as much as anyone considering he did single-handedly keep the clean sheet against Wigan. Performances like that are as crucial as Kodjia scissor kicking one in to the bag in front of the Holte End.

When called upon he has pulled off the saves he should make, along with a couple of excellent ones. He has commanded his box, more catching less punching. Hard to tell what his relationship is like with the back line. He still has a ways to go before declaring him the next saviour, it is a small sample size but it aligns with what we heard of him before he came.

Impressive turnaround. 

Yep I don't disagree with any of this.

My point really was BECAUSE it's such a small sample size, they'd have to be really outstanding performances for me to think "yes this kid is special"

If he'd been putting the level of performance he's shown for the past few games in for a whole season then I'd be right on board with signing him up.

But based on a such a small sample of games, unless he'd put in some amazing performances, it's not enough for me to be convinced that THAT is the norm and he won't revert to being basically a liability.

I'm not saying he will regress, all I'm saying is it would be a gamble to spend £3m on him based on the past few games alone.

[astonaidan]

Lets put it this way, the fact that we are worried even when he is keeping clean sheets screams about his quality. Those of you throwing out clean sheets as a fact why we should sign him clearly havent a clue. If we could get Gollini back over him Id be more than happy. If we really need to sign a English goalie from the premier league, get Alex McCarthy

[bobzy]

9 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yep I don't disagree with any of this.

My point really was BECAUSE it's such a small sample size, they'd have to be really outstanding performances for me to think "yes this kid is special"

I don't understand how you can't conclude a goalkeeper is good enough because the sample size is too small, but you can conclude that he isn't good enough.  What's the difference here?

(Of course, being a "special" player is somewhat different).

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

I don't understand how you can't conclude a goalkeeper is good enough because the sample size is too small, but you can conclude that he isn't good enough.  What's the difference here?

(Of course, being a "special" player is somewhat different).

I haven't concluded he's not good enough. 

In his time here he's had a string of games where he's been poor and a string of games where he's been improved. I don't know which is the norm, which is entirely my point. 

Part of the reason I can't conclude either way is why I don't think we should be spending a huge fee (relatively speaking) to sign him.

[bobzy]

11 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I haven't concluded he's not good enough. 

In his time here he's had a string of games where he's been poor and a string of games where he's been improved. I don't know which is the norm, which is entirely my point. 

Part of the reason I can't conclude either way is why I don't think we should be spending a huge fee (relatively speaking) to sign him.

I can't think of games where he's cost us - definitely mistakes (they slip my mind, but I remember him making a few), but games?  Maybe that Wolves game?  Although, also terrible tracking by the midfield.

£3m for a 24 year old goalkeeper really isn't that much - not that I'm saying we should buy him, but it wouldn't bother me at that price.  I know you've cited the Championship record fee for a goalkeeper before, but this era is unparalleled when it comes to the amount of money clubs have.