mykeyb Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 30 minutes ago, TRO said: I think he will do , Terry. It is all about our perceptions......but I think he has tried to focus on building the confidence at the back and create clean sheets.....He will then gradually move on the the other departments, without disrupting the defence. I concur with your preferred playing style......However Ipswich was formidable too that season. I think thats being generous. For me he is still making exactly the same mistakes he was during the Jan/Feb run only he has Jedinak back which has made a huge difference and Kodja who has added some much needed goals. The starting eleven on saturday was poor even by Bruces standards and we could have been 3.0 down at half time because of it, and in the bad run we probably would have been. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 4 hours ago, KSV said: I agree.. only concern is.. i dont think we can play badly and win games all season. Which this season has proved. A good pre season.. a few more players in as well.. build the combinations etc next season hopefully will have some good dominant performances as well. I wonder if we will see us play well under Bruce this season for more than about 25 minutes...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, mykeyb said: I think thats being generous. For me he is still making exactly the same mistakes he was during the Jan/Feb run only he has Jedinak back which has made a huge difference and Kodja who has added some much needed goals. The starting eleven on saturday was poor even by Bruces standards and we could have been 3.0 down at half time because of it, and in the bad run we probably would have been. Couldn't possibly disagree more. Wigan were the better side, but we look far different from that side in the bad run. These past 6 games, the opposition have barely done anything, Wigan probably created more than the other 5 combined.in our bad run, Brentford or Barnsley single handedly offered more of a threat than these past 6. Because Bruce has us being solid now. There's very little in common between those 2 runs and the recent run is all the more I pressie because of a disaster spell of luck with injuries. He's starting to show why, time and time again, he takes sides up to the Premier League. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted March 20, 2017 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, bobzy said: Nah, sorry, but this is absolute bollocks. I've had a lot of discussion about this recently (most people just wish to see wins at whatever cost) and it is entirely dependent on what "one" gets out of football and, in this instance, supporting Aston Villa. Personally, I like to be entertained on the whole (not at the complete detriment of results). Right now, I'm not. I've now witnessed my team go on the best run in God knows how long (5 wins in 6!) and whilst it's great that we're winning games, I can honestly say I don't feel much satisfaction from it. By all accounts, I haven't watched each game in full and have mainly been watching poor streams, listening to commentary or just seeing highlights. However, in each of those games, it seems like we've been poor. Only against Rotherham (rock bottom, cut adrift) have we managed to control the game and create a fair amount - every other game in this run, we haven't done that. People are saying things like we "belong in the Premier League". Currently, we really, really don't. If you're not satisfied by the team you support winning football matches then I don't even know where to start the discussion. I'm entertained by Villa winning. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko154 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 18 minutes ago, mykeyb said: I think thats being generous. For me he is still making exactly the same mistakes he was during the Jan/Feb run only he has Jedinak back which has made a huge difference and Kodja who has added some much needed goals. The starting eleven on saturday was poor even by Bruces standards and we could have been 3.0 down at half time because of it, and in the bad run we probably would have been. The starting eleven almost picked itself due to injuries and players not being fully fit for 90 minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said: Couldn't possibly disagree more. Wigan were the better side, but we look far different from that side in the bad run. These past 6 games, the opposition have barely done anything, Wigan probably created more than the other 5 combined.in our bad run, Brentford or Barnsley single handedly offered more of a threat than these past 6. Because Bruce has us being solid now. There's very little in common between those 2 runs and the recent run is all the more I pressie because of a disaster spell of luck with injuries. He's starting to show why, time and time again, he takes sides up to the Premier League. Wigan were the better side until Bruce brought on hogan and Lansbury - they helped make the difference and when we get green on the left rather than amavi we will see further improvement . i agree we are beginning to see why Bruce has won 4 promotions - this team will get better as they play together and we will be a real force next season . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Good football is subjective. Winning isn't. Give me that over 'pretty' football any day of the week. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Bruce is doing what he did when he first took over. We keep it tight for 60 mins, then bring on attacking substitutions to change the game. Whilst it may not be the most entertaining it certainly works and breeds success. Eddie Jones used the same type of tactics with England rugby and lets be honest we'd all love a 18 game winning streak (yes I know it's I realistic). This team is starting to get more confident in their abilities and will only blossom in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 this might have already been discussed as i've been away for the weekend... but looking back at the Wigan game, it seems at 60 mins we were drawing 0-0 away from home. Bruce wanted to push for the win, so he did a double substitution which included swapping our right-back for an extra striker. 13 mins later we scored! a tactical masterpiece if Mourinho had done it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Nobody is saying that. I'm certainly not. There's plenty that Bruce can and should be criticised on over the past few months. I've criticised him numerous times. But when the team playing well is put down to the manager "letting" them, implying that what he usually does is make them play crap, it gives the impression that you're making every effort to take credit away from him. I disagree and think it'd be far better if you debated why you don't agree rather than simply disliking what's written, but that's up to you of course. I don't see any issue at all with basically saying sometimes his choices and plans get the best from the team and other times they don't. Do you think the initial selection made as much sense as the changed one ? How about against Ipswich ? The 3 subs made by Bruce there were arguably the three that should've started, and again once they were on we were more cohesive. I can point to game after game where IMO he has been overly cautious and less effective and other games or parts of games where he has been less so and we've been better. Whilst that doesn't make my opinion correct it IS valid and has absolutely nothing to do with 'taking credit away from him'. He gets stuffvright IMO and he gets stuff wrong IMO, simple as that. And I have to say at every game I hear people saying the same thing. At half time Saturday every single conversation was ' he has to change it at half time/ how many full backs do we need on the pitch/no midfield/ are we playing 6-2-2 again etc.' Frankly I'm baffled how anybody who watches us can't have noticed it. The only question really is whether it's felt to be merited to set up so defensively or not. He was responsible for our losing run and rightly was criticised. He is responsible for 2 very good runs and is rightly praised. Neither scenario is incompatible with airing a view as to his good or bad points. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, sexbelowsound said: Good football is subjective. Winning isn't. Agree with this but the issue for me (even thou some might interpret it as that) isn't if it's "pretty" or not. But rather that I don't feel our current way of approaching games will be successful enough to get us promoted next season. As it is we are gifting (or at least not able to keep it for ourselves) the possession and control of the game to the opponents for large parts of the game, hoping to ride it out and score by an individual effort. No I don't want us to play tiki-taka and have 80% possession and 90% passing accuracy, but I want us to have at least an idea of how we are going to act in possession and a clear way of building attacks. So far we have not under Bruce. I see lots of people stating that it will come with time and I hope it does, I'm sure many of you know much more than me about Bruce and his methods. But for me he is and has as far as I know been a manager who is a bit cautious and puts safety first. Nothing wrong with this but I'm not sure we have a team suited to that approach. From what I've seen we look our best when we put high pressure on our opponents and push a bit higher up using the 4-3-3. Hopefully when Green and Baker gets back we'll revert back to this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, TRO said: I think he will do , Terry. It is all about our perceptions......but I think he has tried to focus on building the confidence at the back and create clean sheets.....He will then gradually move on the the other departments, without disrupting the defence. I concur with your preferred playing style......However Ipswich was formidable too that season. I now think he will too. I am more convinced than ever he will be les and less cautious the longer he's here. I think you are spot on with what he's doing which is why there is nothing 'negative blah blah' as some say in having a view that he is OVERdoing that defensive focus. No problem if people think he ISNT overdoing it, but the insistence if some ( even you TRO !!) that's it's NOT by choice is baffling. To me he quite clearly knows what he's doing when he sets us up very defensively, and equally clearly knows what he's doing when he decides to be more positive. The only real debate is whether he has the balance right and in my view he is too cautious and it's cost us, but he's getting there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Are people forgetting how badly the club had been destroyed by Lerner? Of course that feeling will work its way down to the players, and no it isn't a quick fix. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 20, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, DK82 said: Are people forgetting how badly the club had been destroyed by Lerner? Of course that feeling will work its way down to the players, and no it isn't a quick fix. I find it interesting after the 6 years we have had that for some it isn't enough to string a few results together, have a season of rebuilding on and off the pitch whilst playing, for the main part under Bruce, competent football. I get the feeling that many want to run before we've learned to walk again following the hobbling of the Lerner years, particularly last season. Even I got suckered by the potential quick fix of Tony's millions, but it didn't quite materialise for one reason or another and I've no issue letting it go. They went for it and failed and I hope we've all learned that it wasn't a problem we could simply throw money at, commendable as the attempt was. One of my favourite periods supporting the club was under John Gregory, where a 0-0 result at half time was viewed as a fantastic result because you always knew that we would go out in the second period and turn the screw until they snapped. I'm seeing the same resilience in this side. Maybe it isn't a style that is sustainable over long periods of time, I don't know. But as baby steps go, it's one I'm happy for us to take. Edited March 20, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 20, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 20, 2017 49 minutes ago, terrytini said: I disagree and think it'd be far better if you debated why you don't agree rather than simply disliking what's written, but that's up to you of course. I don't see any issue at all with basically saying sometimes his choices and plans get the best from the team and other times they don't. Do you think the initial selection made as much sense as the changed one ? How about against Ipswich ? The 3 subs made by Bruce there were arguably the three that should've started, and again once they were on we were more cohesive. I can point to game after game where IMO he has been overly cautious and less effective and other games or parts of games where he has been less so and we've been better. Whilst that doesn't make my opinion correct it IS valid and has absolutely nothing to do with 'taking credit away from him'. He gets stuffvright IMO and he gets stuff wrong IMO, simple as that. And I have to say at every game I hear people saying the same thing. At half time Saturday every single conversation was ' he has to change it at half time/ how many full backs do we need on the pitch/no midfield/ are we playing 6-2-2 again etc.' Frankly I'm baffled how anybody who watches us can't have noticed it. The only question really is whether it's felt to be merited to set up so defensively or not. He was responsible for our losing run and rightly was criticised. He is responsible for 2 very good runs and is rightly praised. Neither scenario is incompatible with airing a view as to his good or bad points. I think you've misunderstood what my OP was. We're talking about two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, sexbelowsound said: Good football is subjective. Winning isn't. Give me that over 'pretty' football any day of the week. absolutely spot on. Steve Davies v Jimmy White......we know who we would all like to watch.....but who won the silverware? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, wilko154 said: The starting eleven almost picked itself due to injuries and players not being fully fit for 90 minutes... and thats helped Bruce out to a certain extent. I will be happily proven wrong..........time will tell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, kurtsimonw said: Couldn't possibly disagree more. Wigan were the better side, but we look far different from that side in the bad run. These past 6 games, the opposition have barely done anything, Wigan probably created more than the other 5 combined.in our bad run, Brentford or Barnsley single handedly offered more of a threat than these past 6. Because Bruce has us being solid now. There's very little in common between those 2 runs and the recent run is all the more I pressie because of a disaster spell of luck with injuries. He's starting to show why, time and time again, he takes sides up to the Premier League. Interesting to find out how much people think our new resilience is down to Bruce or the return of Jedinak. Out of his 4 promotions how many were through the playoffs, from memory is it three. You would hope if he is as good as you intimate he is it wont be through the play-offs. We should be better than that surely. Edited March 20, 2017 by mykeyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, mykeyb said: Interesting to find out how much people think our new resilience is down to Bruce or the return of Jedinak. Out of his 4 promotions how many were through the playoffs, from memory is it three. You would hope if he is as good as you intimate he is it wont be through the play-offs. We should be better than that surely. Managers need players to manage. It's only fair that both get the praise when those players are managed well. I seem to remember Jedinak getting a lot of stick under RDM? Chelsea will win the title, not solely because of Kante or Conte alone but due to a combination of the manager and the squad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, terrytini said: I now think he will too. I am more convinced than ever he will be les and less cautious the longer he's here. I think you are spot on with what he's doing which is why there is nothing 'negative blah blah' as some say in having a view that he is OVERdoing that defensive focus. No problem if people think he ISNT overdoing it, but the insistence if some ( even you TRO !!) that's it's NOT by choice is baffling. To me he quite clearly knows what he's doing when he sets us up very defensively, and equally clearly knows what he's doing when he decides to be more positive. The only real debate is whether he has the balance right and in my view he is too cautious and it's cost us, but he's getting there. Terry, I do not have monopoly on what is right and what is wrong.....but I do think you hold him personally responsible for things, that I don't ( or not convinced its directly down to him) Let me give you and example..... If he feels deep down the back four is not Quite good enough as individuals ( bear in mind I am saying IF) He may have to set us up in a fashion that helps them, that may have a knock on effect to other parts of the team.....but he does it to build confidence and keep clean sheets.....but causes himself another problem elsewhere. In doing so, he affects the visual experience........That is not by choice, that is doing the best with what he has got.......you cannot put right in one window what we have had to fix ( I don't know how many times that has to be repeated or whether in fact in some quarters it sinks in) These players maybe a distant memory, by the time the team are pleasing the whole fan base...... Do you remember Frank Carradus , Leighton Phillips, Ian Ross, John Robson,Sammy Morgan & Pat McMahon.....all part of the transitional gradual rebuild of that era......but they didn't feature in the finished article. When you complain of the unconvincing football Terry, you are stating what you see.....nothing wrong with that.I agree. When I am commenting, I have one eye on the future and accept the flaws (you see) as part of the transition. I am not prepared to beat Steve Bruce up every time I see a poor game or poor decision ,I accept it as part and parcel of the evolution...and as irritating as it is, in my view, it goes with the territory. If we were losing and still seeing turgid football, I may have a different view, to the one I have now. In our own ways we are both right.....but please bear in mind we are possibly both coming from slightly different angles, hence our slightly different views. Winning is not easy in this or any other league, because the opposition don't want you to win and will do everything in their power to stop you.....It requires effort, desire, will, belief, physicality all the things we have been lacking ( and are returning) and you do have to have some skills to carry wins off. Ps If some fans had of had their way in Jan.....we may not have had the 5 wins, he would have been gone....but that's hypothetical of course. Edited March 20, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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