Steve Bruce

[TRO]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Precisely why I picked on Accrington Stanley merely to illustrate a point, who I'm sure despite that advert are a great club to support! 

When Tom Hanks said of Aston Villa.....I just like the name.

There is something too, about Accrington Stanley......we should be twinned with them

[Stevo985]

14 hours ago, bobzy said:

That's great - it doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees is "moaning because there's nothing else to moan about", that's just wrong. 

You're right, it is wrong. 

I'd rephrase my original statement to start with "generally".

[bannedfromHandV]

15 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I think that is the problem here isn't it in that many people,certainly those outside of the club, look simply at what we have spent and say they should be doing much better. That is taking the huge assumption though that the money was spent wisely.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think most would now agree that the money we spent last summer could have been spent much better. Gollini, McCormack, Elphick, Tshibola for combined fees of around 27 mill have so far given us poor returns. For every good signing last summer the evidence so far suggests there was one we paid well over the odds for.

On the upside though, even though it is very early days, the money spent in January looks very well spent. Lansbury, Hourihane, Bree for around 8 mill combined looks like daylight robbery, Taylor for Ayew and money our way looks a good deal. Hogan at this stage too early to judge but I think he has that something about him and will challenge Kodjia next season for leading scorer. He is the polar opposite to McCormack in that he looks hungry and will give his all in striving to play at the highest level possible.

It is way too simplistic to say that Bruce should have done much better as this squad cost X amount. I can understand those outside the club doing it but those of us who follow us should know the dire mess we were and that the squad needed major surgery last summer and know that the surgeon who initially undertook it didn't do the best job given the funds at his disposal. Simple logic should also tell us that you aren't going to get a group of individuals to evolve into a team overnight no matter how good they are. It takes time and thankfully we have people above the manager who appreciate that and are allowing a manager with a proven track record that time.

Perfectly summarised and has been said before, a case of what might have been had we been able to have Bruce in from the start - you can argue that the football we play under him is less than inspiring but you only need consider how much of an improvement the players signed in during January have been.

 

What might Bruce have done with that £27m or so we spent (wasted, essentially) on the ones you mention, in my opinion - a lot.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, terrytini said:

I disagree and think it'd be far better if you debated why you don't agree rather than simply disliking what's written, but that's up to you of course.

I don't see any issue at all with basically saying sometimes his choices and plans get the best from the team and other times they don't.

Do you think the initial selection made as much sense as the changed one ?

How about against Ipswich ? The 3 subs  made by Bruce there were arguably the three that should've started, and again once they were on we were more cohesive.

I can point to game after game where IMO he has been overly cautious and less effective and other games or parts of games where he has been less so and we've been better.

Whilst that doesn't make my opinion correct it IS valid and has absolutely nothing to do with 'taking credit away from him'. 

He gets stuffvright IMO and he gets stuff wrong IMO, simple as that.

And I have to say at every game I hear people saying the same thing. At half time Saturday every single conversation was ' he has to change it at half time/ how many full backs do we need on the pitch/no midfield/ are we playing 6-2-2 again etc.'

Frankly I'm baffled how anybody who watches us can't have noticed it. The only question really is whether it's felt to be merited to set up so defensively or not. 

He was responsible for our losing run and rightly was criticised. He is responsible for 2 very good runs and is rightly praised.

Neither scenario is incompatible with airing a view as to his good or bad points.

Terry, when the prime initial objective  is to rebuild confidence ,in not only the team, but the squad, I think he can be forgiven for taking a cautious approach.

If he is still doing it in the future, then that would be a separate argument.

I prefer to take an evolving view as opposed to here and now.

[kurtsimonw]

@bobzy if you seriously think Bristol weren't flattered by only losing 2-0 and that the nailed on Sheffield Wednesday red card wasn't an obvious red and a good performance then I can only assume you've watched some really crap highlights for those games.  We were very comfortable in both really and really should've won by more. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by kurtsimonw

[Grasshopper]

22 hours ago, TRO said:

I think he will do , Terry.

It is all about our perceptions......but I think he has tried to focus on building the confidence at the back and create clean sheets.....He will then gradually move on the the other departments, without disrupting the defence.

I concur with your preferred playing style......However Ipswich was formidable too that season.

Due to Iypswitch being the darlings of the BBC at the time MOTD just highlighted that they were not a complete team Defence was inconsistant MF a bit gung-ho and they traunst some teams but lost a few silly games iirc

We were solid throughout the team, we ran on empty more than a few times only using 14 players.

However if it would have been 3pts for a win, we'd have been in with a game or 2 to spare

We were champs anyway so F*** The Tractor Boys

[Grasshopper]

22 hours ago, TRO said:

I think there is a case to say the quality of football on display is questionable, but I believe such was the extent of our fall......getting back to winning games and keeping clean sheets was his initial priority on our way back to respectability.

I do not subscribe to the theory that the manager is some kind of anti- football protagonist that has set the team to play turgid football.....I believe it is a by product of not being close to the finished article.

Steve Bruce is well aware of the comments made about the football by Terry, GH, you Bobzy etc......These issues will be addressed, but only when he is confident the initial things have been fixed.

The only difference I see in the posts is ......some fans want jam tomorrow, others are in receipt of the poor football, but are willing to wait.

I am not blaming the players, they are learning to play with each other, but equally to blame the manager for issues that involve poor back passes, errors in goal, missed chances etc is folly......These are player issues, that they have to work on, not manager issues.

Steve Bruce is trying to "boil the ocean" give him time to get around to all the elements.

 

All well & good @TRO but making mistakes against bottom half teams in the ch is one thing. Making mistakes against promotion chasing rivals means a defeat.

As an example, the Leeds away game, we were dominating a promotion rival away from home untill the shit went down.

We could have, and I'd argue, we should have won. IMHO Bruce put the brakes on after this game (regarding "going for it" football). We never recovered from it mentally really and once the "cautious" approach took over and the decisions that eventually cost us (Gaby as a Kodjia - goalmachine - SJ and not an experienced GK - some would include Gestedes transfer &/or McGate - No Backup for Jedi) the results took an unneccessary turn for the worst.

This is my biggest gripe.

Bruce had it there, right in front of him, all he had to do was be bold and he/we MAY have been rewarded. We'll never know, but imho he created his own misfortune which ended in a run of shamefull defeats.

So we are very much back to square one of his reign, ironically with a better squad to do the business for the last 14 (or so) games (6 gone 8 to go)

give me 1D (vBrighton) & 1L (Hudds) or 2L (B & H) from the last 14 and we would have been in 6th no sweat if he'd have had his balls expanding.

Tell me, are we going to get away with Bruce making any/many suspect decisions going for top 2 with the likes of  4 from Hudds, Leeds, Reading, ShefW & Fulham plus A possiblility of 1 or more of Palace, Swansea or Boro coming down.

After all is said and done going up this season through the playoffs would have been easier (as top 2 really wasnt on after RDMs start) than next season. Imho next season will be more condensed at the top.

An afterthought, but could still be possible.

Imagine 1 or both of Toon and Brighton going to pieces, Hudds or Leeds, go up and one of those top 2 get knocked out the playoffs?

We seem the champions of "making it difficult for ourselves" let alone the opposition being tougher

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, kurtsimonw said:

@bobzy if you seriously think Bristol weren't flattered by only losing 2-0 and that the nailed on Sheffield Wednesday red card wasn't an obvious red and a good performance then I can only assume you've watched some really crap highlights for those games.  We were very comfortable in both really and really should've won by more. 

I didn't dispute the Bristol City result, only that they threatened us and we weren't comfortable.  It was a decent enough performance but nothing brilliant.

Against Sheffield Wednesday, they were the better side up until the red card.  They pretty much dominated the first half (few chances, goal disallowed) before we scored with our first meaningful attempt of the game.  I don't think their player should've been sent off - can see why the ref gave it as he jumps a bit, but he basically lands on the floor and catches our player with one foot.  In any case, that red card turned the game in our favour.  It wasn't a very comfortable performance at all and I'd suggest your view is a bit blinkered if you seriously think it was.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

@bobzy can you just clarify me that you were at the Wednesday game? Because that doesn't really fit in with what I saw, at all. 

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

@bobzy can you just clarify me that you were at the Wednesday game? Because that doesn't really fit in with what I saw, at all. 

No - I watched the game on a screen.  I suppose I should clarify that we were comfortable in the end, after the sending off.  Just not whilst it was 11 vs. 11.

[bobzy]

I'll also say, this is making me sound way more negative about us than I actually feel!

I'm pleased that results have been great recently and I like the fact we're more solid and playing more like a team.  I just feel there's also a long way to go until we look like a side that would challenge for the title.  I believe Bruce having the summer to work on things will help this substantially.

[Grasshopper]

 

23 hours ago, ender4 said:

but looking back at the Wigan game, it seems at 60 mins we were drawing 0-0 away from home.  

Bruce wanted to push for the win, so he did a double substitution which included swapping our right-back for an extra striker.  

13 mins later we scored!

a tactical masterpiece if Mourinho had done it  

 

Against a better team we may have been 3-0 down and shot of confidence.

even with confidence we would have had to have scored 4

Mourinho has a higher level of players & managers to put his wits up against

[Grasshopper]

Wigan A.F.C. ffs

[TRO]

4 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

Due to Iypswitch being the darlings of the BBC at the time MOTD just highlighted that they were not a complete team Defence was inconsistant MF a bit gung-ho and they traunst some teams but lost a few silly games iirc

We were solid throughout the team, we ran on empty more than a few times only using 14 players.

However if it would have been 3pts for a win, we'd have been in with a game or 2 to spare

We were champs anyway so F*** The Tractor Boys

I am certainly not questioning our credentials that season, despite them beating us 3 times.

as shankly said at the time any team that wins 24 games in a season deserves it.

but that is a tune that is not particularly being played with many on here with our current team.....it seems winning alone is not enough for some, even though we are in transition.

[TRO]

7 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

All well & good @TRO but making mistakes against bottom half teams in the ch is one thing. Making mistakes against promotion chasing rivals means a defeat.

As an example, the Leeds away game, we were dominating a promotion rival away from home untill the shit went down.

We could have, and I'd argue, we should have won. IMHO Bruce put the brakes on after this game (regarding "going for it" football). We never recovered from it mentally really and once the "cautious" approach took over and the decisions that eventually cost us (Gaby as a Kodjia - goalmachine - SJ and not an experienced GK - some would include Gestedes transfer &/or McGate - No Backup for Jedi) the results took an unneccessary turn for the worst.

This is my biggest gripe.

Bruce had it there, right in front of him, all he had to do was be bold and he/we MAY have been rewarded. We'll never know, but imho he created his own misfortune which ended in a run of shamefull defeats.

So we are very much back to square one of his reign, ironically with a better squad to do the business for the last 14 (or so) games (6 gone 8 to go)

give me 1D (vBrighton) & 1L (Hudds) or 2L (B & H) from the last 14 and we would have been in 6th no sweat if he'd have had his balls expanding.

Tell me, are we going to get away with Bruce making any/many suspect decisions going for top 2 with the likes of  4 from Hudds, Leeds, Reading, ShefW & Fulham plus A possiblility of 1 or more of Palace, Swansea or Boro coming down.

After all is said and done going up this season through the playoffs would have been easier (as top 2 really wasnt on after RDMs start) than next season. Imho next season will be more condensed at the top.

An afterthought, but could still be possible.

Imagine 1 or both of Toon and Brighton going to pieces, Hudds or Leeds, go up and one of those top 2 get knocked out the playoffs?

We seem the champions of "making it difficult for ourselves" let alone the opposition being tougher

I think the teams you mention have been acclimatised to this  division for longer than us.

i hear your points of critique, but I think they are harsh or unappreciative when a team with our dramatic fall is trying to find its way back.

No manager is going to fix this without making errors, its part of the journey back.

without the support of Dr Tone.....this would have taken 3 or 4 seasons. As opposed to possibly 2

may I give you an example how some folk think.

England Rugby team were going for the Grand slam in Dublin on the back of 18 consecutive wins.....they lost, and still, some had to appear dismissive of that and ask why......sometimes, it does not matter what you do, it doesn't please all. They too are not the finished article and will improve.....but we are all at different stages of improvement.

I can't explain some of the errors we seem to manage......but I am certain, it will improve with the work we are doing.

Ps you say SB should do this that or the other.....He will do it his way and live or die by it.

Edited March 21, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

Wigan have lost by the odd goal to:

QPR

Fulham

Shef Wed

drew with Norwich

Beat Blues at home.

why do we think (a team in our condition )beating a team at home by 2 goals  (who are fighting for there existence in this league) is something to be sniffed at?

A banana skin if ever there was one......good  result for me.

 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

No - I watched the game on a screen.  I suppose I should clarify that we were comfortable in the end, after the sending off.  Just not whilst it was 11 vs. 11.

It wasn't on TV

 

Anyway I agree with DDID. I don't think you're description of the game reflects it at all. In absolutely no way did they dominate the first half.

[bobzy]

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

It wasn't on TV

 

Anyway I agree with DDID. I don't think you're description of the game reflects it at all. In absolutely no way did they dominate the first half.

Who watches football on TV anymore?!  Dat internet. 

[bannedfromHandV]

4 hours ago, bobzy said:

I didn't dispute the Bristol City result, only that they threatened us and we weren't comfortable.  It was a decent enough performance but nothing brilliant.

Against Sheffield Wednesday, they were the better side up until the red card.  They pretty much dominated the first half (few chances, goal disallowed) before we scored with our first meaningful attempt of the game.  I don't think their player should've been sent off - can see why the ref gave it as he jumps a bit, but he basically lands on the floor and catches our player with one foot.  In any case, that red card turned the game in our favour.  It wasn't a very comfortable performance at all and I'd suggest your view is a bit blinkered if you seriously think it was.

Honestly, this isn't at all about going down a 'better fan than you' road mate, truth be told I've only been to one game this season myself (Fulham) and aside from the times we've been live on sky I've only sporadically bothered with searching for radio streams (as far as I know there haven't been live action streams for our matches again other than those on sky).

But what are you basing your opinion on?

I only ask as I know from an earlier post you mentioned same as above essentially and I just don't think that's enough to base a formulated opinion - it's enough for an opinion but not a reasonable one, in my view anyway.

[dn1982]

At what point can we start asking for improvements in our football from Bruce? I think we have one of the best squads in the league and our 1st 11 is as good as any yet we never out play teams on a regular basis. We definitely can do as we've shown in glimpses under Bruce. Brighton away. Preston for 60 min but I've not seen us boss a game from start to finish. This team shouldn't have any issue with confidence. Only a couple remain from last season and our results over the last few weeks is as good as you can expect. We should now be seeing our football developing. I know injuries have hindered this but then Bruce hasn't helped himself with his team selections at times. He's been saying he wants to try to get us working with a front 2 but he should also be put in place the system for the rest of the team so if it is 442 play people in positions they're comfortable with.