Steve Bruce

[rodders0223]

Why is he still picking out first 11?

[theboyangel]

3 hours ago, rodders0223 said:

Why is he still picking out first 11?

Winning team too - thanks Steve 

[TRO]

20 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

No. No I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.

Yes the club was unstable and financially on its knees in the summer but don't try and tell me that was the reason we entered the season with 2 CB's and 1 LB because that doesn't even stand up to the most basic scrutiny. 

You say the financial difficulties were remedied too late. Well that is just not true.

The investment by the new owners happened around the 20th July, the transfer window closed on the 9th August and the loan market remained open until 31st August. That given the seeming financial clout of the new owners was ample opportunity to do something about the imbalance in our squad.

Bruce managed to sign Nyland, McGinn, Yuanzebe, El Ghazi, Abraham, Bolasie and Moreira. 

So yes, without a shadow of a doubt his ability to sign players or even attempt to sign players was hampered by the financial issues at the club, even the most ardent of Bruce critic would be hard pushed to dispute that and I'd say I'd be in the running for that title. But to to try and claim that the issues of the summer resulted in us only having 2 CB's and 1 LB is just wrong, plain wrong.

You can't claim that is the case when he signed 7 players. He had ample opportunity to sign players for those positions. That is before you even get to the ludicrous decision to loan out Tommy Elphick when he hadn't secured another CB and please don't try and justify that mistake by pointing at his early season form or claim people supported it at the time because they didn't.

Yes he tried to sign a CB, who seemingly turned us down because of the football Bruce played, and yes he tried to sign a LB who had a last minute better offer. But where were the back up plans or targets? They may or may not have existed but he didn't land them and that wasn't because of a lack of financial backing or a lack of time.

Then you have to factor in the utter arrogance of the man and his belief in spite of the evidence to the contrary that he could turn Jedniak into a CB.

Besides all of this, the summer was the 4th window Bruce had at the club and he was backed to varying degrees in each of them. The decisions he made in each of those windows contributed to us having 2 CB's and 1 LB, he opted to do things like sell Baker and sign short term sticking plasters like Samba and Terry, who though excellent was a very short term deal.

He had 4 windows to try and build a back four, so you can't possibly try and put our lack of players down to the instability of the summer.

And don't try and say about hindsight being an exact science. You know full well I was outspoken on Bruce and his approach for a very long time, I first stated I thought he should go in pre-season going into his first full season. 

There is nothing outlandish to say he is utterly responsible for the mess of a squad he left behind. And yes O'Neill took stick after he went for the bloated wages on crap players he left behind and again that was justified.

Yes he is gone but no I won't stop blaming him for the mess he made when he was here, especially the 2 CB's and 1 LB. Because he is responsible.

Frankly, that you are in the same breath talking about the new manager in Smith needing to take responsibility is ridiculous when you defended Bruce for as long as you did and still seem to want to absolve him of blame for things that were in his control.

Just back after the game......

Response Points.

1. It doesn't seem feasible that a CB would refuse to come claiming Bruces style of football....forward, yes, for obvious reasons,but centre back seems far fetched.

2. We sold Baker, because he was error prone and injury prone and we had a sufficientt suitor, the claim wè have no better, is probably valid.

3. I agree we should have had solid centre backs, before Terry arrived, but we didn,t....so his and Johnstone's departure was a set back....I think to dismiss the debacle of the summer so nonchalantly is hard nosed, particularly as he thought he had secured one of either Moukoudi and McKenna.

4. I am fully aware of your stance on Bruce and I have stated in the past some of your comments towards him are right.....I think some are not and fail to consider any mitigation or doubt....I think your overall personal feeling towards him, influences your judgment ,when some issues  would be better served with doubt....Laymen like us don't always know how close managers miss out on players we would all like.....or how hard they work, without the final result.

5. I don't think the squad is a mess.....but I do think many of our players are prone to individual errors, poor at positional sense and many basic elements....too many too old. we still have some good players, just not enough.

6. The new manager will at some stage have to take the baton of responsibilty and the Bruce one put down.....yes right now is too soon, I concede that, but equally it is not open ended.

7. I have stated on here many times, i an not unconditionally defending our ex manager, but I think it is only fair to comment, when I believe some of the criticism is convenient to dovetail with the general feeling towards the man.....we obviously disagree on that...i call you hard nosed towards him....some on here accused me of being his brother.

8 I am totally behind Dean Smith in what he is trying to do....I have heard his comments on our play and particularly his view that the whole team struggle with defending, I happen to agree......I think he will get it right, but more than him are responsible for that...The stars have to align for that to happen.i.e Suso and Purslow have a part to play. I am not judging him this early, so you have me wrong on that.....on the defence of Bruce I reiterate, its not unconditional as you seem to infer, its in sync with the unfair claims made against him.....In my opinion of course

8a.....If you want me to state my case against him, I happy to do so.

• I thought the quality of his defenders individually was suspect, so he deployed so many bodies to defend
• I thought he was too easy on the players at BMH, i didn't see the intensity, i saw in other teams we played
• Hogan was a very bad buy
• The style of football, was predictable and stale, lacked invention and subsequently hope.
• In all the time he was manager, i seen very little evidence of progress in the team or individuals, probably Jack as the only exception.
• Never really explained the game (in his eyes )in after match interviews, so we never really knew what was his intention to try and improve was.

there are probably other things, but just trying to illustrate, the fact, i do not have this mythical unerring tendency to defend him on everything.I am trying to present a balanced view.

I am I happy with the new guy?.....I think so, but like you say, will have to wait, until i can make a proper and fair judgment.

He undoubtedly says the right things.....doing is the tricky bit.

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by TRO

[TrentVilla]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

Points.

1. It doesn't seem feasible that a CB would refuse to come claiming Bruces style of football....forward, yes, for obvious reasons,but centre back seems far fetched.

2. We sold Baker, because he was error prone and injury prone and we had a sufficientt suitor, the claim wè have no better, is probably valid.

3. I agree we should have had solid centre backs, before Terry arrived, but we didn,t....so his and Johnstone's departure was a set back....I think to dismiss the debacle of the summer so nonchalantly is hard nosed, particularly as he thought he had secured one of either Moukoudi and McKenna.

4. I am fully aware of your stance on Bruce and I have stated in the past some of your comments towards him are right.....I think some are not and fail to consider any mitigation or doubt....I think your overall personal feeling towards him, influences your judgment ,when some issues  would be better served with doubt....Laymen like us don't always know how close managers miss out on players we would all like.....or how hard they work, without the final result.

5. I don't think the squad is a mess.....but I do think many of our players are prone to individual errors, poor at positional sense and many basic elements....too many too old. we still have some good players, just not enough.

6. The new manager will at some stage have to take the baton of responsibilty and the Bruce one put down.....yes right now is too soon, I concede that, but equally it is not open ended.

7. I have stated on here many times, i an not unconditionally defending our ex manager, but I think it is only fair to comment, when I believe some of the criticism is convenient to dovetail with the general feeling towards the man.....we obviously disagree on that...i call you hard nosed towards him....some on here accused me of being his brother.

8 I am totally behind Dean Smith in what he is trying to do....I have heard his comments on our play and particularly his view that the whole team struggle with defending, I happen to agree......I think he will get it right, but more than him are responsible for that...The stars have to align for that to happen.i.e Suso and Purslow have a part to play. I am not judging him this early, so you have me wrong on that.....on the defence of Bruce I reiterate, its not unconditional as you seem to infer, its in sync with the unfair claims made against him.....In my opinion of course

8a.....If you want me to state my case against him, I happy to do so.

• I thought the quality of his defenders individually was suspect, so he deployed so many bodies to defend
• I thought he was too easy on the players at BMH, i didn't see the intensity, i saw in other teams we played
• Hogan was a very bad buy
• The style of football, was predictable and stale, lacked invention and subsequently hope.
• In all the time he was manager, i seen very little evidence of progress in the team or individuals, probably Jack as the only exception.

there are probably other things, but just trying to illustrate, the fact, i do not have this mythical unerring tendency to defend him on everything.

I am I happy with the new guy?.....I think so, but like you say, will have to wait, until i can make a proper and fair judgment.

1. That is what happened. 

2. I know why we sold him and I'm not particularly of the view it was the wrong decision. However what was the wrong thing to do was sell him and spunk the entire lot on wages of two players that wouldn't be at the club for longer than a season. It is a factor in why we started this season with 2 CB's and evidence of why its fair to blame him.

3. I don't dismiss the issues of the summer, I just refuse to let them be an excuse for us starting the season with 2 CB's given that he managed to sign 7 players. He opted to let Elpwick go without having signed a replacement, that alone is a decision responsible for us only having 2 CB's. As for McKenna he was never even remotely close to signing him.

4. I absolutely take into account mitigating factors with Bruce for instance see my posts in the McCormack thread, I just refuse to accept the plethora of excuses offered by him and for him. I think any attempt to try and say he wasn't responsible for us having 2 CB's and 1 LB is utterly ridiculous.

5. I do. We've 3 RB's, 1 LB, 2 CB's only one of which we own. We had two keepers both signed this summer neither of which was good enough. We have two defensive midfielders that can't run. Three wingers, two of which we don't own while we pushed Green out on loan and one of those that was signed wasn't fit enough to play and was being paid a fortune. Then there is the £12m Hogan that Bruce signed (despite seemingly having no idea what sort of player he was) wasting away along with Lansbury which is remarkable given Bruce spent two years pleading poverty.

6. No it isn't open ended but the theme of your posts seems to be that you are eager to pass it on to Smith, which I find frustrating given that you defended Bruce for so long as still do to an extent.

7. I dislike Bruce, I really dislike the guy. I don't though think I've lost my objectivity.

8/8a. Then we agree on quite a lot I just fundamentally disagree on any line of reasoning that seeks to defend Bruce or absolve him of blame for the 2 CB/1 LB issue.

[TRO]

On 26/01/2019 at 20:25, TrentVilla said:

1. That is what happened. 

2. I know why we sold him and I'm not particularly of the view it was the wrong decision. However what was the wrong thing to do was sell him and spunk the entire lot on wages of two players that wouldn't be at the club for longer than a season. It is a factor in why we started this season with 2 CB's and evidence of why its fair to blame him.

3. I don't dismiss the issues of the summer, I just refuse to let them be an excuse for us starting the season with 2 CB's given that he managed to sign 7 players. He opted to let Elpwick go without having signed a replacement, that alone is a decision responsible for us only having 2 CB's. As for McKenna he was never even remotely close to signing him.

4. I absolutely take into account mitigating factors with Bruce for instance see my posts in the McCormack thread, I just refuse to accept the plethora of excuses offered by him and for him. I think any attempt to try and say he wasn't responsible for us having 2 CB's and 1 LB is utterly ridiculous.

5. I do. We've 3 RB's, 1 LB, 2 CB's only one of which we own. We had two keepers both signed this summer neither of which was good enough. We have two defensive midfielders that can't run. Three wingers, two of which we don't own while we pushed Green out on loan and one of those that was signed wasn't fit enough to play and was being paid a fortune. Then there is the £12m Hogan that Bruce signed (despite seemingly having no idea what sort of player he was) wasting away along with Lansbury which is remarkable given Bruce spent two years pleading poverty.

6. No it isn't open ended but the theme of your posts seems to be that you are eager to pass it on to Smith, which I find frustrating given that you defended Bruce for so long as still do to an extent.

7. I dislike Bruce, I really dislike the guy. I don't though think I've lost my objectivity.

8/8a. Then we agree on quite a lot I just fundamentally disagree on any line of reasoning that seeks to defend Bruce or absolve him of blame for the 2 CB/1 LB issue.

8/8a I think we do despite our ding dongs....I do not subscribe to him from being absolved from responsibility, just airing elements of mitigation of which we seem to disagree on.

7. I have to take you to task on this....I do not see how a balanced argument can be raised when you have an intrinsic dislike for someone, the natural trait is to be mean with any mitigation or doubt, not giving any benefit to doubt....with regards to the undoubted disappointment of the residue of the defence, we ( I assume) have not finite detail of the events of why that situation was left like it was...hence my claim to you, you are claiming to be judge and jury on that alone.

• For my part....I do not dislike Steve Bruce or Dean Smith, so I would value my claims to be unbiased or not intrinsically motivated.
• On Hogan it turned out to be an horrendous misjudgment, something that even the selling manager can't seem to remedy....but many fans were equally as happy him doing it.
• just remember....one mans excuse, is another mans reason or rationale.
• You make claims of poor judgment on players and frankly, I agree.....But I have seen that, with managers before him, but hopefully NOT in the future.
• If the theme of my posts appears to pass it on to Smith....Then I need to write a bit more explicitly....because that is not my intention....Dean will be judged fairly, when he has his own players and yes things take time.....we await with hope & anticipation to the outcome.

Overall we have our own views on him...that will never change....lets move on in unison with Dean Smith.

Edited January 27, 2019 by TRO

[TrentVilla]

 

11 hours ago, TRO said:

8/8a I think we do despite our ding dongs....I do not subscribe to him from being absolved from responsibility, just airing elements of mitigation of which we seem to disagree on.

7. I have to take you to task on this....I do not see how a balanced argument can be raised when you have an intrinsic dislike for someone, the natural trait is to be mean with any mitigation or doubt, not giving any benefit to doubt....with regards to the undoubted disappointment of the residue of the defence, we ( I assume) have not finite detail of the events of why that situation was left like it was...hence my claim to you, you are claiming to be judge and jury on that alone.

• For my part....I do not dislike Steve Bruce or Dean Smith, so I would value my claims to be unbiased or not intrinsically motivated.
• On Hogan it turned out to be an horrendous misjudgment, something that even the selling manager can't seem to remedy....but many fans were equally as happy him doing it.
• just remember....one mans excuse, is another mans reason or rationale.
• You make claims of poor judgment on players and frankly, I agree.....But I have seen that, with managers before him, but hopefully NOT in the future.
• If the theme of my posts appears to pass it on to Smith....Then I need to write a bit more explicitly....because that is not my intention....Dean will be judged fairly, when he has his own players and yes things take time.....we await with hope & anticipation to the outcome.

Overall we have our own views on him...that will never change....lets move on in unison with Dean Smith.

Sorry to labour a point but you this very discussion started because you absolved Bruce from responsibility for us having 2 CB's and 1 LB, I think I've demonstrated why that is in my view wrong.

You seem to think that you have to like someone in order to be able to have a balanced view on their performance, I don't think that is the case. You seem to think you are the only one who can be objective on the topic of our managers.

Happy to move on, time for another break from VT I think.

[S-Platt]

2 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Happy to move on, time for another break from VT I think.

Don't go mate I enjoy reading your thoughts on things and little bits of inside info!

[Dodgyknees]

Imagine backing a man who left us in a really shitty position. He wanted players on loan - and then moaned when they went back to their parent clubs in the summer, so he learned his lesson and loaned some more. Then he got rid of a defender when we were short - because that defender had the balls to call Bruce out on his attitude towards some players. And, even though we were "left in a better position than when he arrived", we were incredibly unbalanced across the pitch.

Bruce is a prick, his family are pricks.

[sne]

Alan Shearer (I know) claiming that the reason Bruce is yet to take charge at Wednesday is because Villa are still paying him and he is prohibited to do so before Feb 1st due to his severance deal with us.

Not implausible I guess, no idea if Shearer is anyone to trust on this matter thou.

[bannedfromHandV]

4 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

 

Sorry to labour a point but you this very discussion started because you absolved Bruce from responsibility for us having 2 CB's and 1 LB, I think I've demonstrated why that is in my view wrong.

You seem to think that you have to like someone in order to be able to have a balanced view on their performance, I don't think that is the case. You seem to think you are the only one who can be objective on the topic of our managers.

Happy to move on, time for another break from VT I think.

Why?

Not that it's my business really.......

[TRO]

6 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

 

Sorry to labour a point but you this very discussion started because you absolved Bruce from responsibility for us having 2 CB's and 1 LB, I think I've demonstrated why that is in my view wrong.

You seem to think that you have to like someone in order to be able to have a balanced view on their performance, I don't think that is the case. You seem to think you are the only one who can be objective on the topic of our managers.

Happy to move on, time for another break from VT I think.

• I have never claimed he is not responsible per se.....I said there may be circumstances we are not totally aware of that conspired against his decisions....On the surface I agree with you....personally I would change the whole back 4....as long as they were better.
• I think its difficult to have a balanced view, when you openly declare your dislike for him....on the second part, on the contrary, folk write some really balanced stuff on here on all our managers...but I certainly don't think I have the monopoly on that...If that's what my posts infer, then I need to improve my writing.
• I have only ever tried to defend Steve Bruce from what I think is unfair criticism....as for championing him as a manager, I have never felt that partisan towards him, I have already put my criticisms in writing , don't know what more I can do to illustrate my position on him.....but he is opposition now, so its obvious I want him to be below us.
• I think we both need to move on and support Dean Smith....as for another break from VT, not on your Nelly.....I really enjoy your posts and despite our different views on this....you may be surprised how many other things you write, I agree with and learn from.

Lets just agree to disagree on this.

Edited January 28, 2019 by TRO

[Dave J]

7 hours ago, S-Platt said:

Don't go mate I enjoy reading your thoughts on things and little bits of inside info!

Here here

[TheStagMan]

On 26/01/2019 at 20:25, TrentVilla said:

1. That is what happened. 

2. I know why we sold him and I'm not particularly of the view it was the wrong decision. However what was the wrong thing to do was sell him and spunk the entire lot on wages of two players that wouldn't be at the club for longer than a season. It is a factor in why we started this season with 2 CB's and evidence of why its fair to blame him.

3. I don't dismiss the issues of the summer, I just refuse to let them be an excuse for us starting the season with 2 CB's given that he managed to sign 7 players. He opted to let Elpwick go without having signed a replacement, that alone is a decision responsible for us only having 2 CB's. As for McKenna he was never even remotely close to signing him.

4. I absolutely take into account mitigating factors with Bruce for instance see my posts in the McCormack thread, I just refuse to accept the plethora of excuses offered by him and for him. I think any attempt to try and say he wasn't responsible for us having 2 CB's and 1 LB is utterly ridiculous.

5. I do. We've 3 RB's, 1 LB, 2 CB's only one of which we own. We had two keepers both signed this summer neither of which was good enough. We have two defensive midfielders that can't run. Three wingers, two of which we don't own while we pushed Green out on loan and one of those that was signed wasn't fit enough to play and was being paid a fortune. Then there is the £12m Hogan that Bruce signed (despite seemingly having no idea what sort of player he was) wasting away along with Lansbury which is remarkable given Bruce spent two years pleading poverty.

6. No it isn't open ended but the theme of your posts seems to be that you are eager to pass it on to Smith, which I find frustrating given that you defended Bruce for so long as still do to an extent.

7. I dislike Bruce, I really dislike the guy. I don't though think I've lost my objectivity.

8/8a. Then we agree on quite a lot I just fundamentally disagree on any line of reasoning that seeks to defend Bruce or absolve him of blame for the 2 CB/1 LB issue.

Thanks........that means a lot

Edited January 30, 2019 by TheStagMan

[lapal_fan]

Has done a video interview with the BBC, defending himself.

Whilst I agree it's been a hell of a 6 months for him personally, mentally and physically, as a professional football club, we can't really hang onto sentiment.. you could argue Villas existence depends on 100% commitment, 24/7. 

The squad isn't (wasn't) in great shape when he left, but I felt the club did the right thing keeping him on in the summer.  But our sacking of him, however harsh it may have looked on the outside, was needed.

I'll maintain that as a person, he seems ok.. maybe a bit prickly, but who wouldn't be when everything you do is scrutinized? 

I wish him the best of luck at Wednesday though and I'll thank him for giving me some personal sunshine in a dark 8(!) years supporting the club.  I enjoyed the spirit in the squad, and I like characters like Snodgrass and Terry.  

But he needed to go when he went. 

As usual, I think the fans were pretty shitty towards him at the end, and he had things levelled at him personally which no-one should have to put up with.

[Dave J]

10 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

Has done a video interview with the BBC, defending himself.

Whilst I agree it's been a hell of a 6 months for him personally, mentally and physically, as a professional football club, we can't really hang onto sentiment.. you could argue Villas existence depends on 100% commitment, 24/7. 

The squad isn't (wasn't) in great shape when he left, but I felt the club did the right thing keeping him on in the summer.  But our sacking of him, however harsh it may have looked on the outside, was needed.

I'll maintain that as a person, he seems ok.. maybe a bit prickly, but who wouldn't be when everything you do is scrutinized? 

I wish him the best of luck at Wednesday though and I'll thank him for giving me some personal sunshine in a dark 8(!) years supporting the club.  I enjoyed the spirit in the squad, and I like characters like Snodgrass and Terry.  

But he needed to go when he went. 

As usual, I think the fans were pretty shitty towards him at the end, and he had things levelled at him personally which no-one should have to put up with.

I used to think he was a decent guy - then when I read the stories on here regarding him trying to manipulate a move to the states in the summer, only to do a 180 when the new owners came in - kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth ( if true - I have no idea or not if this were the case)

Also the moment you criticise your own fans - becomes a bridge to far and inevitably can only go one way.

In the end his " I know better you you" attitude I feel alianated  him and coupled with poor results meant his job became untenable after the Preston game.

I'm afraid he bought the stick he received upon himself 

Before he joined us - I thought he was a decent guy, but a very ordinary football manager.

Now I just think Steve Bruce meh!

[blandy]

55 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Now I just think Steve Bruce meh!

I’ve always thought that. Don’t dislike him. Don’t like him. His football is cack. He tried hard, failed, got sacked. Gone. Good. Meh!

[Zatman]

I was never a fan. Was always smug when beating us with other clubs not to mention his dire uninspiring football with usually a large chequebook

Edited February 2, 2019 by Zatman

[villa4europe]

His football was shit, his squad building full of holes and we weren't good enough all before the death of his parents

Seen a lot of other fans saying shame on villa for the way we treated him

I'm running out of sympathy for him over his parents, starting to become shame on him for hiding behind it, this "we were 1 goal away from the PL" stuff, I genuinely dread to think how bad we would be if we had gone up, he wouldn't have a job here now that's for sure, we would be as bad as were when we went down and anchored with a load more shit expensive experienced players he liked 

[bannedfromHandV]

38 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

His football was shit, his squad building full of holes and we weren't good enough all before the death of his parents

Seen a lot of other fans saying shame on villa for the way we treated him

I'm running out of sympathy for him over his parents, starting to become shame on him for hiding behind it, this "we were 1 goal away from the PL" stuff, I genuinely dread to think how bad we would be if we had gone up, he wouldn't have a job here now that's for sure, we would be as bad as were when we went down and anchored with a load more shit expensive experienced players he liked 

Wtf is wrong with people. 

I think when people are dying in future, they should be forced to read all the nonsensical shit they post on social media. 

 

[rodders0223]

Quote

“It’s not always about money, we got Hull promoted with a collection of loans and waifs and strays. I can’t wait to get started."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/31/steve-bruce-sheffield-wednesday-get-started