Steve Bruce

[HanoiVillan]

The point I would make in defence of Bruce, while completely accepting OBE's and Trent's points above, is that he has an ultimate goal in mind for the player, which is presumably a player still skilful but tough enough that he doesn't need protecting. Criticising Grealish may be one step towards the very long term goal of building a toughened superman. 

[briny_ear]

11 hours ago, Woodytom said:

Questions need to be asked of Steve Bruce imo.. With regards his woeful football and strange decisions!

Agreed. The main question should be: "How on earth have you managed to get a 50% win rate and almost 1.7 points a match from this pile of shite?"

[Woodytom]

20 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Agreed. The main question should be: "How on earth have you managed to get a 50% win rate and almost 1.7 points a match from this pile of shite?"

Thing is tho. You say that but I'm pretty alone when I'm in various player threads questioning ability...... kodjia, adomah, amavi for example. So fans obviously rate those 3. We've then got baker and Chester and jedinak (bar passing) who are undoubtedly playing well. Then the likes of grealish. There is 7 first team players who I'd say across the vast majority of the fan base, are rated. It's not a complete pile of shite.......... well it is imo, but If everyone shared that opinion my posts regarding amavi not being great wouldn't be seen as pfe imo.

Even in the Westwood thread my opinion of him being absolutely Shite has been viewed as being OTT.

Think theres a lot of inconsistencies in opinions on here. Not necessarily yours.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Woodytom

[briny_ear]

12 hours ago, PieFacE said:

We played better football offensively under RDM imo.  

If we did, it didn't result in a goal feast. 10 goals from 11 league games under RDM. 16 from 14 under SB.

So we have slightly increased the goal rate and greatly increased the win rate that RDM managed.

Still nowhere near good enough of course but it would be wrong to look back at RDM's spell as manager as anything but disastrous on all levels.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

53 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

If we did, it didn't result in a goal feast. 10 goals from 11 league games under RDM. 16 from 14 under SB.

So we have slightly increased the goal rate and greatly increased the win rate that RDM managed.

Still nowhere near good enough of course but it would be wrong to look back at RDM's spell as manager as anything but disastrous on all levels.

To be fair, there were a couple games under RDM which we were carving teams open just not scoring. Hitting post etc

[kurtsimonw]

58 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Thing is tho. You say that but I'm pretty alone when I'm in various player threads questioning ability...... kodjia, adomah, amavi for example. So fans obviously rate those 3. We've then got baker and Chester and jedinak (bar passing) who are undoubtedly playing well. Then the likes of grealish. There is 7 first team players who I'd say across the vast majority of the fan base, are rated. It's not a complete pile of shite.......... well it is imo, but If everyone shared that opinion my posts regarding amavi not being great wouldn't be seen as pfe imo.

Even in the Westwood thread my opinion of him being absolutely Shite has been viewed as being OTT.

Think theres a lot of inconsistencies in opinions on here. Not necessarily yours.

Because people aren't always overly negative. I think the 3 you mention have some pretty big flaws in their game, but I don't really feel the need to go on and on and on about them. I do think you tend to go over the top and seem to try and argue down anything positive anyone has to say.

[StefanAVFC]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I like Bruce, he's the right man for the job, but one thing sticks out for me today - the stories in the press and the post match interviews with the manager are all about Jack Grealish learning not to wave his arms about, learning that he'll be kicked and he needs to get used to it - essentially blaming Jack for the reaction to some appalling treatment.

I think there's a case for blaming Bruce for not 'waving his arms around' enough.

Having put the idea of the whingeing superbrat into the mind of the referee before the game, Warnock was able to influence the result by putting in place a circumstance where the referee was thinking twice about who was the victim every time Jack was fouled, he'd put in place the environment in which he knew the crowd would help him by adding to the feel that this was pantomime not assault.

From our perspective, Bruce before the game should have been talking to the press about protection, about hatchet men, about mean old Cardiff and the poor idealistic boy - setting a different scene in the mind of the referee. Having done that, the game should have been punctuated by constant moaning from our bench, this is a game where having your assistant sent to the stands for righteous indignation and fury at half time would have been helpful, we needed to be vocal and visible in our criticism of the referee and of the opposition. we needed six players around him, not one player waving his arms, we needed a manager that was in his face and on the pitch, a coaching staff that were making the fourth official's life unbearable - in short, given the unreasonable way in which Cardiff were playing, we should have been much more unreasonable. Pick a big name manager and ask yourself, how would they have reacted, what would this game have been like under Jose or under Wenger or under Benitez or under Pulis - it's a different picture i think.

For me Bruce has the reaction to Jack on this one wrong - and Jack is entitled to be saying "Never mind me waving my arms, where were the rest of you?" Cardiff kicked the crap out of him and no-one else joined the fight.

I don't see training, I don't know these people and I'm sure Mr Bruce sees the bigger picture and the longer term development of the player, but I'm fed up of us being the team you can bully and kick around, I'd like to see us be the unreasonable arsehole bully in the division a little more often when we need to - when you mess with us, we bite - that thing. Yesterday Cardiff kicked one of our players all around the park, on the ball, off the ball, wherever they could, and other than the player himself, we didn't seem to react at all. 

100%.

Unbelievably frustrating. I've had Cardiff fans giving me shit since on Twitter saying 'he spent more time on the ground than on his feet'. Well it isn't bloody surprising considering the amount of times he was taken out. There were times in the game when he was obviously taken out and the Cardiff fans were whining and booing. Unbelievably cynical and I was really disappointed with the ref but I was more annoyed at Bruce who criticised Jack's arm waving first (which anyone would be doing after being wiped out for the 15th time) then said he needed protection.

I agree with Trent's reasoning on this.

[Mantis]

3 hours ago, Woodytom said:

What's the stereotype?

That we're self-entitled, fickle, quick to turn on managers etc.

[Woodytom]

45 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

Because people aren't always overly negative. I think the 3 you mention have some pretty big flaws in their game, but I don't really feel the need to go on and on and on about them. I do think you tend to go over the top and seem to try and argue down anything positive anyone has to say.

Hang on a minute. The post I quoted referred to the players as a pile of shite? As do many posters when they speak in the Steve Bruce thread.

All I'm saying is that it appears (in some cases) to be inconsistent with the chats in the individual player threads. If we've got such a big pile of shite, why are a number of players still rated?

As for putting ppl down who are positive. Not at all. I massively disagree. What I don't do though is disagree with what I perceive to be completely unrealistic viewpoints whether they are positive or negative and I think a lot of opinions on here have ignored the realism that has unfolded over the last few years.

I'm not saying ppl deny that we've been atrocious, more that positives are made from very little evidence. 

Now in life, it's an valuable quality to be able to be positive where possible .....and in some cases in football it's important to be positive even when perhaps it's not warranted. For example, in the crowd at villa park...can have an effect on the team.

That said, I don't think there's a need to do so on a football forum.... just speak what you perceive to be the truth. Which is what I do.

Steve Bruce has made a difference. That's undeniable. However, we will not take the next step, approaching games the way we are and he is accountable for that. Yes the players don't help but we know for a fact they can play better. We've seen them do so.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Woodytom

[Woodytom]

3 minutes ago, Mantis said:

That we're self-entitled, fickle, quick to turn on managers etc.

Who has turned on the manager? Or have we just highlighted some issues? Nobody has called for him to be sacked or anything?

Haven't I been saying for a few years now that it's the players we need to be really questioning?

Fwiw, I think the stereotypical villa fan would be someone completely deluded with the individual talent on the pitch.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Woodytom

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 hour ago, Woodytom said:

Thing is tho. You say that but I'm pretty alone when I'm in various player threads questioning ability...... kodjia, adomah, amavi for example. So fans obviously rate those 3. We've then got baker and Chester and jedinak (bar passing) who are undoubtedly playing well. Then the likes of grealish. There is 7 first team players who I'd say across the vast majority of the fan base, are rated. It's not a complete pile of shite.......... well it is imo, but If everyone shared that opinion my posts regarding amavi not being great wouldn't be seen as pfe imo.

Even in the Westwood thread my opinion of him being absolutely Shite has been viewed as being OTT.

Think theres a lot of inconsistencies in opinions on here. Not necessarily yours.

The gap in terms of ability between our decent players and our dross is startling, at the same time those whom I do rate are inconsistent. Kodjia, for example, has come in for some fair criticism over the past few weeks. Amavi was dreadful against Leeds. It doesn't make them bad players. 

So if the question is how can you rate 6 or 7 players yet also think the manager is doing a fine job getting points out of them, the answer is obvious. You need 11 players on the pitch. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[Guest av1]

1 hour ago, Woodytom said:

Thing is tho. You say that but I'm pretty alone when I'm in various player threads questioning ability...... kodjia, adomah, amavi for example. So fans obviously rate those 3. We've then got baker and Chester and jedinak (bar passing) who are undoubtedly playing well. Then the likes of grealish. There is 7 first team players who I'd say across the vast majority of the fan base, are rated. It's not a complete pile of shite.......... well it is imo, but If everyone shared that opinion my posts regarding amavi not being great wouldn't be seen as pfe imo.

Even in the Westwood thread my opinion of him being absolutely Shite has been viewed as being OTT.

Think theres a lot of inconsistencies in opinions on here. Not necessarily yours.

But then you think our squad is full of sh#t, and yet you think Bruce should be doing better. 

[striker]

I honestly feel that players should be able to look after themselves on the pitch without the manager having to try and protect them in pre or post match interviews.

Didn't see the game yesterday but by all accounts Grealish was targeted so why didn't he have a word in the opposition's ear stating that if you continue to chop me I will roll over like I was shot and get you sent off? 

Alternatively when in close contact with a player you can get away with an elbow into a player's midriff trying to fend him off. Had it done to me (very **** painful) and it makes you think twice before trying to rough a player up to get a reaction.

If you can't look after yourself on a football pitch no matter the standard then go and try netball.

Edited January 3, 2017 by striker

[a m ole]

spot on @OutByEaster? and I'm quite annoyed that he's allowed the media to spin what were honest and somewhat truthful comments. He should have known which part of what he said they would focus on. He should have only been praising him getting back up after being kicked all over the place and still wanting the ball. Talk about the arm waving in private.

Minor gripe though and I'm still pleased with his management so far. 

 

[a m ole]

13 minutes ago, striker said:

I honestly feel that players should be able to look after themselves on the pitch without the manager having to try and protect them in pre or post match interviews.

Didn't see the game yesterday but by all accounts Grealish was targeted so why didn't he have a word in the opposition's ear stating that if you continue to chop me I will roll over like I was shot and get you sent off? 

Alternatively when in close contact with a player you can get away with an elbow into a player's midriff trying to fend him off. Had it done to me (very **** painful) and it makes you think twice before trying to rough a player up to get a reaction.

If you can't look after yourself on a football pitch no matter the standard then go and try netball.

I think the point is the referee should have been doing more but didn't. From what I've been told Jack was fine with the contact and didn't shy away from it.

[Villan_of_oz]

24 minutes ago, av1 said:

But then you think our squad is full of sh#t, and yet you think Bruce should be doing better. 

This. Its true Woody. You think the team is crap and Bruce is crap. It really cant be both can it? Or is record under Bruce all luck  

[Villan_of_oz]

22 minutes ago, striker said:

I honestly feel that players should be able to look after themselves on the pitch without the manager having to try and protect them in pre or post match interviews.

Didn't see the game yesterday but by all accounts Grealish was targeted so why didn't he have a word in the opposition's ear stating that if you continue to chop me I will roll over like I was shot and get you sent off? 

Alternatively when in close contact with a player you can get away with an elbow into a player's midriff trying to fend him off. Had it done to me (very **** painful) and it makes you think twice before trying to rough a player up to get a reaction.

If you can't look after yourself on a football pitch no matter the standard then go and try netball.

OT but I coach my daughter's netball team. Netball is not soft, trust me...... 

[StefanAVFC]

30 minutes ago, striker said:

Didn't see the game yesterday but by all accounts Grealish was targeted so why didn't he have a word in the opposition's ear stating that if you continue to chop me I will roll over like I was shot and get you sent off? 

He was taken out more than enough times for this. The point was the ref wasn't booking them for it so why would he if he started rolling around instead?

[TRO]

4 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I like Bruce, he's the right man for the job, but one thing sticks out for me today - the stories in the press and the post match interviews with the manager are all about Jack Grealish learning not to wave his arms about, learning that he'll be kicked and he needs to get used to it - essentially blaming Jack for the reaction to some appalling treatment.

I think there's a case for blaming Bruce for not 'waving his arms around' enough.

Having put the idea of the whingeing superbrat into the mind of the referee before the game, Warnock was able to influence the result by putting in place a circumstance where the referee was thinking twice about who was the victim every time Jack was fouled, he'd put in place the environment in which he knew the crowd would help him by adding to the feel that this was pantomime not assault.

From our perspective, Bruce before the game should have been talking to the press about protection, about hatchet men, about mean old Cardiff and the poor idealistic boy - setting a different scene in the mind of the referee. Having done that, the game should have been punctuated by constant moaning from our bench, this is a game where having your assistant sent to the stands for righteous indignation and fury at half time would have been helpful, we needed to be vocal and visible in our criticism of the referee and of the opposition. we needed six players around him, not one player waving his arms, we needed a manager that was in his face and on the pitch, a coaching staff that were making the fourth official's life unbearable - in short, given the unreasonable way in which Cardiff were playing, we should have been much more unreasonable. Pick a big name manager and ask yourself, how would they have reacted, what would this game have been like under Jose or under Wenger or under Benitez or under Pulis - it's a different picture i think.

For me Bruce has the reaction to Jack on this one wrong - and Jack is entitled to be saying "Never mind me waving my arms, where were the rest of you?" Cardiff kicked the crap out of him and no-one else joined the fight.

I don't see training, I don't know these people and I'm sure Mr Bruce sees the bigger picture and the longer term development of the player, but I'm fed up of us being the team you can bully and kick around, I'd like to see us be the unreasonable arsehole bully in the division a little more often when we need to - when you mess with us, we bite - that thing. Yesterday Cardiff kicked one of our players all around the park, on the ball, off the ball, wherever they could, and other than the player himself, we didn't seem to react at all. 

I totally agree and disagree almost at the same time.

I think Jack does need to " man up" period , (I thought i seen a bit of improvement in the Burton game)sorry but I do.

and we all know Warnock will target what he see's as a weakness and drive a horse and cart through it.

I am not sure you are right about Bruce trying to protect him, you have to fight your own battles.....its like a father going in to the play ground......they have to sort it out themselves in the long run.

This team has had a soft underbelly for years and this is a feature of it.......We have no players to help  protect jack, thats who need to do it, if any......you need growlers, we haven't got any.

I have watched oodles of Villa Teams over the years and they all had them....they are crucial.

Could you imagine Joey Barton or Robbie Savage allowing that even Eamonn Deacy, god bless him...shaun Teale.

They have to sort it out on the pitch.....I have been saying for yonks we are a soft touch......and yes, I think is mainly coming from the abyss which is midfield.

I do not see a change in our fortunes until we address this.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by TRO

[Woodytom]

30 minutes ago, Villan_of_oz said:

This. Its true Woody. You think the team is crap and Bruce is crap. It really cant be both can it? Or is record under Bruce all luck  

I will wait in anticipation for you to show me where I have said Bruce is crap?

Or, we can discuss what I've really said which is.....

Wasn't bowled over with the appointment

Thought the bloke was a complete moron before but he's grown on me

Has undoubtedly improved us

Had no complaints with the first weeks or so

Have become concerned since the Brighton game with regards our level of performance which I felt results have masked displays...... incidently, all of our defeats have come in this period of concern.

Now, I'm happy to discuss any of the above points but it's pointless debating with people who simply ignore what I've actually said and instead base their posts aimed at me at this incorrect belief that I go around calling everybody and his dog crap with absolute no room for reasoning.