Steve Bruce

[TheStagMan]

I am not a fan of Bruce, but I am not sure that starting again would work either, although if we were to pull the trigger, now is the time (which seems unlikely) - not 10 games into the season.. I know we were a shambles when he took over but we have massively underachieved under him. 13th in the Championship after the highest net spend ever is abysmal. .

Yes, at the start of the season there was a renewed sense of optimism and bounce at the club with Xia and RDM coming in, but that quickly evaporated under a very poor run of results, and yes we then reverted to our downward spiral. Bruce did come in and rectify that to an extent, but disastrous decision making to the issue of Kodjia being unavailable (pinning our hopes on Gabby FFS) did for us. And it was an issue he knew was coming from the day he arrived.

Whilst we had a great run of wins, there was never a feeling of the wins being convincing - and I don't mean the general Villa feeling of "we're gonna **** this up", each game was a rollercoaster ride that any minute you felt the wheels would come off. At no point in any of those games did I think - "yes, I can see the tactics", "yes, we have this under control" etc... and that was borne out in the following results. Overall we did not seem able to change up in games (i recall one or two where the subs made a bit of a difference, but mostly they did not), and I still don't know what our best team is - but more worryingly the players don't seem to know either, nor do they seem to understand what their team mates are going to do. 

I'm not after sexy football, I am after wins - we need to get out of this league, but you can have agricultural football that is effective and reliable - we dont have that and seem to be relying on luck. We need to attack more and we need to score more goals. We have the most expensively assembled Championship squad in history.......we need to make it effective

I genuinely feel that we have won the games we have won and avoided losing the ones we have drawn because we have individually better players than most teams in the league, and there is just enough there to keep us around mid table on skill and experience alone. That wont last - It needs to be knitted together by a manager that has a plan and direction so that everyone knows what each other is doing, and what is expected of them. 

At this point, I am not convinced that Bruce is that man. I would so love to be proven wrong, I really would, but I have not seen anything from Villa this season that makes me think that the blind optimism being shown towards him is warranted and based on anything more than he has achieved 4 promotions in the last 20 years - by that measurement we may get back to the premier league in 5 years time (maybe 4 if we count last season).

[Bomvilla7]

1 hour ago, Godders said:

8Huddersfield conceded 10 more than us this season. Their goal difference was worse than ours. They lost by 3 or more goals on 4 occasions. They didn't score a goal in the entire playoffs. They lost 9-1 on aggregate to Fulham! If that's what a progressive manager means, I'd rather stick with Bruce. 

Seriously, looking at some of their results, our supporters would be calling for his head if he was here, despite the style of football he was playing. 

I don't particularly like the comparison to Huddersfield to be honest. Yes they went up, but they've massively overachieved in doing so imo. I can't help but think they could be in for a massive shock next season. The jury is still out on the Wagner hype for me. I don't know to what extent this season was a Leicester-esque outlier, or the fact that Wagner is the best manager in the league. At the moment I'm leaning towards the former.

Regardless of the difference in financial spending, I would happily lose to Fulham 9-1 on aggregate and get promoted back to the PL via the playoffs without scoring a goal 

[Grasshopper]

15 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

I am not a fan of Bruce, but I am not sure that starting again would work either, although if we were to pull the trigger, now is the time (which seems unlikely) - not 10 games into the season.. I know we were a shambles when he took over but we have massively underachieved under him. 13th in the Championship after the highest net spend ever is abysmal. .

Yes, at the start of the season there was a renewed sense of optimism and bounce at the club with Xia and RDM coming in, but that quickly evaporated under a very poor run of results, and yes we then reverted to our downward spiral. Bruce did come in and rectify that to an extent, but disastrous decision making to the issue of Kodjia being unavailable (pinning our hopes on Gabby FFS) did for us. And it was an issue he knew was coming from the day he arrived.

Whilst we had a great run of wins, there was never a feeling of the wins being convincing - and I don't mean the general Villa feeling of "we're gonna **** this up", each game was a rollercoaster ride that any minute you felt the wheels would come off. At no point in any of those games did I think - "yes, I can see the tactics", "yes, we have this under control" etc... and that was borne out in the following results. Overall we did not seem able to change up in games (i recall one or two where the subs made a bit of a difference, but mostly they did not), and I still don't know what our best team is - but more worryingly the players don't seem to know either, nor do they seem to understand what their team mates are going to do. 

I'm not after sexy football, I am after wins - we need to get out of this league, but you can have agricultural football that is effective and reliable - we dont have that and seem to be relying on luck. We need to attack more and we need to score more goals. We have the most expensively assembled Championship squad in history.......we need to make it effective

I genuinely feel that we have won the games we have won and avoided losing the ones we have drawn because we have individually better players than most teams in the league, and there is just enough there to keep us around mid table on skill and experience alone. That wont last - It needs to be knitted together by a manager that has a plan and direction so that everyone knows what each other is doing, and what is expected of them. 

At this point, I am not convinced that Bruce is that man. I would so love to be proven wrong, I really would, but I have not seen anything from Villa this season that makes me think that the blind optimism being shown towards him is warranted and based on anything more than he has achieved 4 promotions in the last 20 years - by that measurement we may get back to the premier league in 5 years time (maybe 4 if we count last season).

top post

The fear I have is that DrT will have no choice but to pull the trigger at some point. Be it 5 games 10 or 15. AND the further we are away from 2nd with the less games to go the harder it will be for Manager X to success.

By that senario, the trigger should be pulled pre-preseason.

[AntrimBlack]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Nor did they complain last season when he nearly relegated them.

Nor did they complain in October/ November when he managed 5 points from 8 games.

Perhaps they are just more polite up there.

 

Or perhaps they can see a footballing philosophy under a modern, forward thinking manager that they can support.

[thabucks]

Interesting fact about this seasons promotion race from a BBC article relations to wolves new managerial appointment. 

"Five of the top six clubs in the Championship in 2016-17 had foreign managers, including three - Newcastle's Rafael Benitez, Huddersfield's David Wagner and Reading's Jaap Stam - who had not experienced a full season in the division before", 

I keep reading about his previous x4 promotions being a reason to keep him on. As if it's a sure guarantee he will do it again (I'm not dismissing those achievements btw) but football is  ever evolving and time moves on & circumstances change. It's no barometer of future success or failure and a flimsy reason to persevere IMO. 

 

[flashingqwerty]

3 hours ago, briny_ear said:

If you have a look at what I've just posted above, you can see just how disastrous that opening spell was for our promotion hopes. It meant the possibility of staging a strong winning run to get back into the promotion places was so much reduced. Particularly because the risk was then increased massively by importing a new manager and several new players 

So with all due respect to your enjoyment of RDM's football - which I always found frustratingly soft - I would much preferred us to have been winning, no matter how boring or negative. Put down a marker, then you can try the fancy stuff. That's my footballing philosophy. 

The problem is SB hasnt put down a marker. We conceeded goals at roughly the same rate under SB as RDM and achieved a far superior shots per game under RDM.

I firmly believe that much of SBs supposed success has to do with playing 10 men behind the ball most of the time and Kodjia getting used to playing here.

If SB had been judged in the same way as RDM then he would have been sacked in jan/feb when we went 10 games without scoring.

As i say, i dont think either manager was right for the club and didnt want either hired in the first place. Nothing that has happened on the pitch has changed my opinion.

Major difference between SB and RDM is forwards (kodjias) form improved under SB but i think that would also have happened under RDM. And we have next to no attacking intent now whereas we did under RDM.

[Godders]

7 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Interesting fact about this seasons promotion race from a BBC article relations to wolves new managerial appointment. 

"Five of the top six clubs in the Championship in 2016-17 had foreign managers, including three - Newcastle's Rafael Benitez, Huddersfield's David Wagner and Reading's Jaap Stam - who had not experienced a full season in the division before", 

I keep reading about his previous x4 promotions being a reason to keep him on. As if it's a sure guarantee he will do it again (I'm not dismissing those achievements btw) but football is  ever evolving and time moves on & circumstances change. It's no barometer of future success or failure and a flimsy reason to persevere IMO. 

 

I agree that just because he's been promoted before, there is no guarantee he will be again. I don't think anyone at all is suggesting he is completely nailed on to get us back up, and those of us in the Bruce in camp probably all agree with the notion that he has to hit the ground running next season otherwise he will be gone. The difference is that those in the Bruce in camp beleive he can, and will, hit the ground running next season (note that everyone will have their own reasons for reaching this conclusion and it probably won't be based solely on his previous 4 promotions). 

I completely disagree with the notion that things have changed now, and that Bruce is/is becoming a relic of a bygone age. He was last promoted from this league 12 months ago. No way in hell has the league changed that dramatically in one single season, regardless of how many foreign managers are now with us. And he did it with a Hull side that was one of the better teams in the league at keeping hold of the ball and scoring goals.

[terrytini]

Reading the  - continuing  - debate with interest reinforces my view that both 'camps' make a lot of valid points.

All of which I am certain have been weighed up by the Club.

IMO that - rightly - tips things in Bruces favour as the incumbent - but I am quite sure he will need to be getting 2 Points a game from the Off, no excuses.  We absolutely have to be right in the mix for Automatic Promotion.

I can't think even those that want him gone will complain if we average 2 Points per game - and I can't think those that want him to stay would be happy with anything less....................... - I DON'T think he can survive - nor should he - if we are only averaging Play Off Form (which can be pretty poor for ages yet still keep you in with a shout).  Such a scenario would prove the doubters massively right very quickly, and quick action - MUCH quicker than with RDM, given the time Bruce has already had - will be required.

[KHV]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

Reading the  - continuing  - debate with interest reinforces my view that both 'camps' make a lot of valid points.

All of which I am certain have been weighed up by the Club.

IMO that - rightly - tips things in Bruces favour as the incumbent - but I am quite sure he will need to be getting 2 Points a game from the Off, no excuses.  We absolutely have to be right in the mix for Automatic Promotion.

I can't think even those that want him gone will complain if we average 2 Points per game - and I can't think those that want him to stay would be happy with anything less....................... - I DON'T think he can survive - nor should he - if we are only averaging Play Off Form (which can be pretty poor for ages yet still keep you in with a shout).  Such a scenario would prove the doubters massively right very quickly, and quick action - MUCH quicker than with RDM, given the time Bruce has already had - will be required.

If he stops trying to play a 4-4-2 to accomodate Hogan he shouldn't be too far away. The signing of Hogan has created more problems than solutions, he just doesn't work in a 4-3-3 and the rest of the team doesn't work in a 4-4-2

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Godders said:

I agree that just because he's been promoted before, there is no guarantee he will be again. I don't think anyone at all is suggesting he is completely nailed on to get us back up, and those of us in the Bruce in camp probably all agree with the notion that he has to hit the ground running next season otherwise he will be gone. The difference is that those in the Bruce in camp beleive he can, and will, hit the ground running next season (note that everyone will have their own reasons for reaching this conclusion and it probably won't be based solely on his previous 4 promotions). 

I completely disagree with the notion that things have changed now, and that Bruce is/is becoming a relic of a bygone age. He was last promoted from this league 12 months ago. No way in hell has the league changed that dramatically in one single season, regardless of how many foreign managers are now with us. And he did it with a Hull side that was one of the better teams in the league at keeping hold of the ball and scoring goals.

I think it is also fair to point out that 2 of those managers mentioned have much experience with English football. 

[TRO]

Watching the final play off between Reading & Huddersfield......I seen nothing to fear.

albeit obviously,we won't be playing Huddersfield next season.

The play was combatitive and workmanlike, they were committed but the play lacked guile and inventiveness......nothing to write home about.

There is only one thing stopping us next season....us.

If we get it together we will be fine.

[Stratvillan]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

Watching the final play off between Reading & Huddersfield......I seen nothing to fear.

albeit obviously,we won't be playing Huddersfield next season.

The play was combatitive and workmanlike, they were committed but the play lacked guile and inventiveness......nothing to write home about.

There is only one thing stopping us next season....us.

If we get it together we will be fine.

Come on now, there's no room for optimism in this thread.  It either has to be hate or love.

 

[Dave J]

4 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

I am not a fan of Bruce, but I am not sure that starting again would work either, although if we were to pull the trigger, now is the time (which seems unlikely) - not 10 games into the season.. I know we were a shambles when he took over but we have massively underachieved under him. 13th in the Championship after the highest net spend ever is abysmal. .

Yes, at the start of the season there was a renewed sense of optimism and bounce at the club with Xia and RDM coming in, but that quickly evaporated under a very poor run of results, and yes we then reverted to our downward spiral. Bruce did come in and rectify that to an extent, but disastrous decision making to the issue of Kodjia being unavailable (pinning our hopes on Gabby FFS) did for us. And it was an issue he knew was coming from the day he arrived.

Whilst we had a great run of wins, there was never a feeling of the wins being convincing - and I don't mean the general Villa feeling of "we're gonna **** this up", each game was a rollercoaster ride that any minute you felt the wheels would come off. At no point in any of those games did I think - "yes, I can see the tactics", "yes, we have this under control" etc... and that was borne out in the following results. Overall we did not seem able to change up in games (i recall one or two where the subs made a bit of a difference, but mostly they did not), and I still don't know what our best team is - but more worryingly the players don't seem to know either, nor do they seem to understand what their team mates are going to do. 

I'm not after sexy football, I am after wins - we need to get out of this league, but you can have agricultural football that is effective and reliable - we dont have that and seem to be relying on luck. We need to attack more and we need to score more goals. We have the most expensively assembled Championship squad in history.......we need to make it effective

I genuinely feel that we have won the games we have won and avoided losing the ones we have drawn because we have individually better players than most teams in the league, and there is just enough there to keep us around mid table on skill and experience alone. That wont last - It needs to be knitted together by a manager that has a plan and direction so that everyone knows what each other is doing, and what is expected of them. 

At this point, I am not convinced that Bruce is that man. I would so love to be proven wrong, I really would, but I have not seen anything from Villa this season that makes me think that the blind optimism being shown towards him is warranted and based on anything more than he has achieved 4 promotions in the last 20 years - by that measurement we may get back to the premier league in 5 years time (maybe 4 if we count last season).

Great post - my only issue is the timing of Bruce's departure - I'm afraid that I am very much in the " be gone now " camp .

thanks for this 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Watching the final play off between Reading & Huddersfield......I seen nothing to fear.

albeit obviously,we won't be playing Huddersfield next season.

The play was combatitive and workmanlike, they were committed but the play lacked guile and inventiveness......nothing to write home about.

There is only one thing stopping us next season....us.

If we get it together we will be fine.

As someone else has already pointed out though, you can't really judge style of play/quality fully on the evidence of a "cup final".

[Guest av1]

9 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

They are just better organised and aggressive. 

When i read that, it made me think back to last time we could say that about ourselves. You would have to say MON days, so 7yrs ago.

Its been chaotic and cowardly ever since.

[DaveAV1]

7 hours ago, Godders said:

8Huddersfield conceded 10 more than us this season. Their goal difference was worse than ours. They lost by 3 or more goals on 4 occasions. They didn't score a goal in the entire playoffs. They lost 9-1 on aggregate to Fulham! If that's what a progressive manager means, I'd rather stick with Bruce. 

Seriously, looking at some of their results, our supporters would be calling for his head if he was here, despite the style of football he was playing. 

I don't particularly like the comparison to Huddersfield to be honest. Yes they went up, but they've massively overachieved in doing so imo. I can't help but think they could be in for a massive shock next season. The jury is still out on the Wagner hype for me. I don't know to what extent this season was a Leicester-esque outlier, or the fact that Wagner is the best manager in the league. At the moment I'm leaning towards the former.

I don't particularly like the comparison between us and Huddersfield either. They've just been promoted and we've just finished 13th. As for over achieving I've never really seen that as a negative. 

[briny_ear]

6 hours ago, AntrimBlack said:

Or perhaps they can see a footballing philosophy under a modern, forward thinking manager that they can support.

I'd like to think the good folks of Huddersfield are too down-to-earth to have any truck with fancy nonsense talk about "footballing philosophy". 

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

Watching the final play off between Reading & Huddersfield......I seen nothing to fear.

albeit obviously,we won't be playing Huddersfield next season.

The play was combatitive and workmanlike, they were committed but the play lacked guile and inventiveness......nothing to write home about.

There is only one thing stopping us next season....us.

If we get it together we will be fine.

One of these teams we beat at their own ground and the other we played off the park both games and should have won both comfortably. The performances are there, just needs to be done on a regular basis. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

As someone else has already pointed out though, you can't really judge style of play/quality fully on the evidence of a "cup final".

i disagree

I seem to caste my mind back to our last cup final with Arsenal.....i think the judgment of the football that day was pretty apt.

I was pretty sure what i seen that day.....cup final or no cup final.

Edited May 31, 2017 by TRO

[Villan_of_oz]

Bruce In