Tony Xia (no longer involved with AVFC)

[hooter]

24 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Supporters just want what is best for their club. You don't have to be a fantastic owner to have Villa as a year in year out top 10 Premier league club. Much like Everton a very similar size club to us. Original beneficiaries like us of the Prem league era money who have been ever presents since, a status we lost 2 years ago.

Ellis wasn't forced out from Villa by fans. He was done and had he have stayed on much longer we were again heading for relegation under him and he knew it.

Fans in the end called for Lerners head and rightly so. We were Premier League bottom feeders for 5 years before we inevitably dropped taking just 17 points. Like Ellis he knew he was done and for at least 12 months wanted out.

Fans aren't responsible for forcing owners out. Being poor custodians inevitably leads to supporters calling for change. When that change comes though what you would hope is that the current custodian and those at the club be it Ellis/Stride or Lerner/Hollis and the relevant authorities, The Premier League/EFL, will ensure that the new owner is fit and proper to run a football club.

We more than anyone as supporters have been failed and are perhaps the last people involved with this football club responsible for this mess and long after everyone else has walked away from it we will still remain.

So your plan is to just sit it out and let Xia do as he wishes ?

When you've a proper word removed owning you, then believe me, you really do need to get your act together. I'm not talking Ellis or Bendall, but you might realise now there is a degree more urgency re this Xia fella.

You need to **** shape up, or you'll be in shit up to your eyeballs before you know it. 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by hooter

[Stephen_Evans]

50 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said:

Apart from the season we were relegated with him as owner, of course. And the 1994/95 season was a close run thing too, down to the last day of the season that one went to.

Ellis was shit. Lerner was shit. Xia unfortunately appears to be shit too.

They all have different ways of proving it, which keeps it varied at least.

Not forgetting dangerous flirtations with relegation in 1988-89, 1990-91 (skin of our teeth both times).  2002-03 and 2005-06 wouldn’t have needed too much else to go wrong either for it to have ended in disaster.

 

So yeah, I count 8 genuine relegation battles under “good old” Doug Ellis (including 1986-87 when it actually happened)....and that’s if we let him off 1968-69 when he became Chairman half way through and 1969-70 (which really was Docherty’s fault).

Edited July 8, 2018 by Stephen_Evans
Additional thoughts

[Only2McInallys]

Your encyclopaedic knowledge is very impressive.

I maybe erased those relegation battles.

But I do remember 2 genuine title challenges something I don't expect to see again in my lifetime

[markavfc40]

13 hours ago, hooter said:

So your plan is to just sit it out and let Xia do as he wishes ?

 

Sorry you have misunderstood me. I also said being a poor custodian inevitably leads to supporters to call for change. We don't therefore force owners out they bring that upon themselves by their poor running of the football club which then leads to calls for change and that manifesting itself in the form of demonstrations etc.

I agree that supporters should try to influence change for the good of their football club.

Edited July 9, 2018 by markavfc40

[TRO]

6 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I remember watching that last game, 1994/95, on a big screen sitting in the lower Holte, we were away at Norwich I think. 

I think Ellis was a businessman who always put himself first. The fact he tried to erase 1980/81 and 81/82 from our history because he wasn’t owner then will always be unforgivable for me. However he wasn’t a business idiot and we were generally well run, mainly perhaps because he employed the right people, i.e. Steve Stride, to run the club. He just couldn’t or wouldn’t take us to the next level, because he wouldn’t take a financial risk with what he thought was his money, when of course it was the club’s.

Lerner was an idiot who had inherited his Dad’s money and thought that the club could run itself. But at least he chucked his own money at it and I don’t believe his failure was malicious. He just stopped really caring and this along with his ineptitude finally beat him.

I’m of the opinion now that Xia never had much money of his own, probably had a few mates with links to the Chinese Government and just winged it, hoping for promotion and a quick exit and a pocket full of cash. His continued clinging on damages us by the day and I don’t think he could care less about Villa, he’ll asset strip us for every penny. He’s just trying to grab as much as he can before he inevitably goes. The worry is if we have anything left once he’s gone. We could end up with no training ground or even a stadium. How much of the compo from HS2 do you think we will see? He’s a total crook who the football authorities allowed to drive a coach and horses through their pathetic rules and regulations. 

when losses are incurred, it starts off with their money but ends up as the clubs debt.....The longer Xia stays the deeper we will be in it.

I think the stadium is protected Dave.....not quite sure how, but think it is.

[DaveAV1]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

when losses are incurred, it starts off with their money but ends up as the clubs debt.....The longer Xia stays the deeper we will be in it.

I think the stadium is protected Dave.....not quite sure how, but think it is.

I really hope you’re right about Villa Park TRO. You’ll remember when we had no training ground in the late 60s and we’re going cap in hand to schools for places to train. This guy won’t worry about putting us into that position as long as he gets his hands on the dosh. 

[dubbs]

 Makes you wonder if there are ppl interested in taking over and he's just saying things to get the best price.  If someone had bid to buy stake it makes sense to turn it down if you want rid of 100% of it.

[sidcow]

9 hours ago, Londonastonvilla said:

Your encyclopaedic knowledge is very impressive.

I maybe erased those relegation battles.

But I do remember 2 genuine title challenges something I don't expect to see again in my lifetime

I think it was easier for any club to mount a title challenge in those days so long as a few things clicked. 

Nowadays Ellis wouldn't get a sniff at it. Leicester and a one off billion to one shot aside no one outside of the current established top 6 who are set in stone will ever have a tilt at the title. It's just an impossible job. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by sidcow

[Rob182]

16 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I think it is telling isn't it that in the open letter Xia took the time to address a number of the stories that have been written but didn't address the one regarding the 5 million pound we are haemorrhaging every month. Suggests that one may not be too wide of the mark.  

I think it's far from telling.

You have to keep your cards close to your chest in business. No matter what the situation is. Nothing that Xia actually addressed in his letter will influence other clubs' bids for our players.

However, if he'd come out and said what people seem to want to hear "We have a £5.2m deficit every month and have to make up £75m in player sales for FFP, plus we have £14m in bank loans to repay in the next 12 month!", do you not think clubs would immediately knock 50% off what they want to pay for our players?

At least he'd have given everyone the full accounts though.

[terrytini]

12 hours ago, Londonastonvilla said:

We were promoted the next season and had 2 years soon after where we were genuine title challengers twice.5 years later we finishe 4th won league cup twice and were never in danger of relegation when he was in control 

Not bad record to me

Others have mentioned some of the major negatives....but I’d add that the key, for me and many, is to look at what other Clubs with not dissimilar fan bases/ potential etc managed to build in the 90’s into the 00’s....particularly Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Man City, Liverpool.

Of course some had more obvious freak assistance than others, some started from a higher level, some had a bigger internstional appeal. Some, of course, have also had struggles along the way. 

But there’s no doubt those Clubs have had a better journey, and are currently at a significantly better destination, than us....with decent ownership that’s the group we could/ should have been in.

Thats not a sense of entitlement speaking, or living in the pre - war past, it’s an observation of where we were compared to where we are. 

In my view we have as much reason to be disenchanted with our record of ownership as any fans in the country. It’s been dreadful.

[terrytini]

56 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I think it's far from telling.

You have to keep your cards close to your chest in business. No matter what the situation is. Nothing that Xia actually addressed in his letter will influence other clubs' bids for our players.

However, if he'd come out and said what people seem to want to hear "We have a £5.2m deficit every month and have to make up £75m in player sales for FFP, plus we have £14m in bank loans to repay in the next 12 month!", do you not think clubs would immediately knock 50% off what they want to pay for our players?

At least he'd have given everyone the full accounts though.

A week or so ago you made the point to me ( a good point I agreed) that you can’t keep secrets relating to finance in football.

I think the idea that Clubs in the market for our players don’t know virtually the entire picture of our finances is very wide of the mark.

In fact, I would imagine players, agents, owners, and others know far, far more about our position than we ever will.

A couple of weeks ago I fully understood your reluctance to make comprehensive judgments. Whilst still fully respecting your view, I no longer understand it.

In my view, we are right on a precipice. Xia is now ( and maybe always was) looking after only one person.

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, Rob182 said:

I think it's far from telling.

You have to keep your cards close to your chest in business. No matter what the situation is. Nothing that Xia actually addressed in his letter will influence other clubs' bids for our players.

However, if he'd come out and said what people seem to want to hear "We have a £5.2m deficit every month and have to make up £75m in player sales for FFP, plus we have £14m in bank loans to repay in the next 12 month!", do you not think clubs would immediately knock 50% off what they want to pay for our players?

At least he'd have given everyone the full accounts though.

You really think how much crap we are in has been kept in house given that both Wyness and Round have been sacked. I'd imagine everyone with in football knows the extent of our problems and especially those who are sniffing around our players will have made it their business to find out.

Edited July 9, 2018 by markavfc40

[hippo]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

Others have mentioned some of the major negatives....but I’d add that the key, for me and many, is to look at what other Clubs with not dissimilar fan bases/ potential etc managed to build in the 90’s into the 00’s....particularly Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Man City, Liverpool.

Of course some had more obvious freak assistance than others, some started from a higher level, some had a bigger internstional appeal. Some, of course, have also had struggles along the way. 

But there’s no doubt those Clubs have had a better journey, and are currently at a significantly better destination, than us....with decent ownership that’s the group we could/ should have been in.

Thats not a sense of entitlement speaking, or living in the pre - war past, it’s an observation of where we were compared to where we are. 

In my view we have as much reason to be disenchanted with our record of ownership as any fans in the country. It’s been dreadful.

I fear its the london effect - I know there are a couple of exceptions, but even smaller London clubs seem to get switched on owners - whilst outside London we get Chinese loony's 

[Villa_Vids]

The open letter created more questions and confusion. So now we have to lower our expectation because of Xia's reckless gamble?  I just pray there is a white knight coming to our rescue, and TX is playing hardball over a full sale. 

[Rob182]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

A week or so ago you made the point to me ( a good point I agreed) that you can’t keep secrets relating to finance in football.

I think the idea that Clubs in the market for our players don’t know virtually the entire picture of our finances is very wide of the mark.

In fact, I would imagine players, agents, owners, and others know far, far more about our position than we ever will.

A couple of weeks ago I fully understood your reluctance to make comprehensive judgments. Whilst still fully respecting your view, I no longer understand it.

In my view, we are right on a precipice. Xia is now ( and maybe always was) looking after only one person.

I don't see how players and agents would know the figures. The manager might have been told, and he might have told people close to him, but I can't imagine the club are going to call a meeting with the players and tell them the exact finances. Yes everyone knows that we're not in a good situation, but the exact finances and the full extent of the issue is what some people have been calling for Xia to explain. That's not going to happen.

I reserve my right to refuse to make comprehensive judgements because nothing has changed in that we still don't know the severity of our situation. I have never said 'Xia has my full support' or 'Xia in' or any other pro-Xia bollocks that people seem to make out I have. I'm just not going to be actively leading the protests for him to leave when I don't know the full situation, or the mess that a new (possibly worse) owner would inherit. I'm under no illusions that Xia's management of our finances has been crap, but do I think his gamble was similar to that made by many other clubs that got relegated from the Premier League in recent years? Yes. I'd say it is. 

You insinuate that people know the finances, but in recent weeks we've heard the press say that we have £40m to make up, then it was £60m, and now it's £75m. Maybe things are coming to light in time, or maybe the press are guessing.

[paul1984]

34 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I don't see how players and agents would know the figures. The manager might have been told, and he might have told people close to him, but I can't imagine the club are going to call a meeting with the players and tell them the exact finances. Yes everyone knows that we're not in a good situation, but the exact finances and the full extent of the issue is what some people have been calling for Xia to explain. That's not going to happen.

I reserve my right to refuse to make comprehensive judgements because nothing has changed in that we still don't know the severity of our situation. I have never said 'Xia has my full support' or 'Xia in' or any other pro-Xia bollocks that people seem to make out I have. I'm just not going to be actively leading the protests for him to leave when I don't know the full situation, or the mess that a new (possibly worse) owner would inherit. I'm under no illusions that Xia's management of our finances has been crap, but do I think his gamble was similar to that made by many other clubs that got relegated from the Premier League in recent years? Yes. I'd say it is. 

You insinuate that people know the finances, but in recent weeks we've heard the press say that we have £40m to make up, then it was £60m, and now it's £75m. Maybe things are coming to light in time, or maybe the press are guessing.

Pretty much this we can't know until march especially with the wild remarks in the press.

 

[hooter]

11 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

Sorry you have misunderstood me. I also said being a poor custodian inevitably leads to supporters to call for change. We don't therefore force owners out they bring that upon themselves by their poor running of the football club which then leads to calls for change and that manifesting itself in the form of demonstrations etc.

I agree that supporters should try to influence change for the good of their football club.

Gotcha.

[hooter]

6 hours ago, TRO said:

when losses are incurred, it starts off with their money but ends up as the clubs debt.....The longer Xia stays the deeper we will be in it.

I think the stadium is protected Dave.....not quite sure how, but think it is.

I think VP is classed as an asset of community value, our Trust managed to get the same status for Elland Road.

If so, my understanding is it gives partial protection, it can't be sold on without "the community" (in our case I believe that means the Supporters trust) being given 6 months (I think ) to try and come up with a bid to buy it.

I don't think there is any obligation to accept that bid, even if it matches any other, but the long and short of it is you'd get plenty of notice if there was a plan to sell the ground, whereas ours just passed into the hands of an unknown BVI entity almost overnight back in the day.

[TheEgo]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

when losses are incurred, it starts off with their money but ends up as the clubs debt.....The longer Xia stays the deeper we will be in it.

I think the stadium is protected Dave.....not quite sure how, but think it is.

Villa Park is only protected in the sense that it can't be sold without fans knowing about it first and therefore being able to also bid. The seller isn't obliged to sell to fans though. So no REAL protection sadly. 

 

**Edit, just seen that this was answered on the previous page. As with Leeds it will also be out Trust that would be informed of any intent to sale

Edited July 9, 2018 by TheEgo

[WaccoeOnline]

27 minutes ago, hooter said:

I think VP is classed as an asset of community value, our Trust managed to get the same status for Elland Road.

If so, my understanding is it gives partial protection, it can't be sold on without "the community" (in our case I believe that means the Supporters trust) being given 6 months (I think ) to try and come up with a bid to buy it.

I don't think there is any obligation to accept that bid, even if it matches any other, but the long and short of it is you'd get plenty of notice if there was a plan to sell the ground, whereas ours just passed into the hands of an unknown BVI entity almost overnight back in the day.

I cant remember whether this has any impact on it being used as security against debt.  Presumably if its effectively mortgaged, a sale could be forced with the bank effectively choosing the next owner.

tbh I've always been wary of a supporters trust (or local council) owning a ground without owning the club, as the scope for game playing around rent, etc - and bad owners blaming good fans for their own ineptitude is too great.  Ideally ground and club should go hand in hand.  Our particular adventures around ground ownership you wouldn't want to wish on anyone however