The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[StefanAVFC]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

According to various bits of analysis I've seen the UK went from beign "the sick man of Yurp" to one of the more prosperous economies in Yurp through joining the Yurpeen union. But they also show that in recent times the vast vast amount of the growth an benefit to the economy has gone to the rich and the south.

So maybe your question is answered by "growing inequality & political disenchantment, disconnection and corruption," or to summarise it more briefly

I see this everyday.

There's a Euroskeptism in Poland for the bolded reason. Fair or not, it's there. With probably the same demographics as in the UK.

However, most Poles, even the 'thickies' know the enormous benefit the EU has on Poland. So they clench their teeth and accept the EU. 

The 'issue' (in '' because it isn't an issue in my eyes) is that the UK is not a net beneficiary meaning there's nothing for a lot of these euroskeptics to clench their teeth about. Apart from Wales, but I'm not sure what happened there.

[VILLAMARV]

This brought to mind a conversation when I was recently in London chatting about Brexit and such and just thought I'd chip in.

The people I spoke to there just could not reconcile the fact that Wales had voted to leave when they are a net beneficiary. It should go without saying they were all people who voted remain and felt strongly that we have made a massive error. The comments that stick in the mind most were along the lines of "they can't understand how global economics works". Not many had visited Wales. Some had been to Cardiff and a couple had ventured into more rural areas. But they knew enough to know it's still a huge Labour stronghold and historically left wing apart from the landowners/farming community. So how could they vote for such a right wing thing? Which from their viewpoint harms them economically.

They seemed to forget that the Welsh have to live there. Outside of the urban areas of Cardiff, Swansea and Newport the land mass is taken up mainly by 3 things. Farming, The National Trust and the MOD. After that there's a few University towns scattered around the coast. The rest of the country is in huge decay. Headlines are often generated along the lines of the old coal mining communities being one of the 'poorest areas in Europe' and this is ultimately the reason behind the extra EU funding. But I didn't think they grasped what the size of that area is or the sheer amount of the Welsh population that live in those areas. From Torfaen and Ebbw Vale, encompassing the Rhondda and Rhymney Valleys, down over the Heads of the Valleys road all the way over to Llanelli, Bridgend, Neath Port Talbot. These communities, like many outside of urban areas in England, have been left to rot. The last remnants of a once proud industrial nation are being propped up economically in Port Talbot and Newport with the steelworks rather publically atm. But the reality is that the Government is the largest employer in Wales by a long way.

And while they created a few extra Government jobs and a nice building by the sea to have a chat in, devolution has been far from a positive thing. Most notably in the NHS where there is a two tier system running within the borders of the UK itself. Many people cross the border for treatment. Ambulances queue up outside hospitals unable to sign over their patients. Hospitals and surgeries in more rural areas merge with bodies further and further away closing down services, forcing people to travel further and further away for treatment. Schools are closing at a rapid rate. Many of the rural schools are under measures from OFSTEAD and plagued by staffing issues. Not to mention how it has left Wales marginalised in Westminster.

Small to medium sized businesses were the lifeblood of those communities. The dismantling of the industrial base goes further than the end of the coal industry. Companies like Hoover and Burberry in Merthyr, Hotpoint in Bodelwyddan and Laura Ashley in Carno employed thousands in their day. Nothing has stepped in to fill the void of these industries disappearing from our landscape as those companies moved their production bases overseas. The birth of Amazon and the rise of the supermarket have decimated any localised retail sectors.

I have come into contact with the same incredulity on the outcome of the EU referendum in Wales as my friends in London held within the borders of Wales too. Mainly from academics or people in skilled work. I ask all of them when was the last time you drove through Risca or Blackwood? Llanelli or Ammanford? When was the last time, other than seeing people interviewed on the news, that you actually experienced what it is like living in these towns and villages now in the present day? It is easy to forget or become distracted in our own bubbles but when the reality is presented to you in such a raw form, doesn't it become impossible then to ignore or dismiss?

Cardiff and Swansea have been the main beneficiaries of EU funding (Outside of the CAP), Welsh Parliament funding and Lottery funding. Bangor kick up a stink and get some money diverted up north once in a while. No one can argue with the likes of Aston Martin being enticed to set up factories in Carmarthenshire being a boost for their local economy, but they, like many other jobs in the current climate, are highly skilled graduate positions, unlikely to affect the local unemployment rates any further than diluting the overall figures by adding some employed people to the mix. But while the remain voters point at the funding it receives from the EU as a reason to be thankful, the communities themselves are left to fathom how a new seafront in Cardiff or business park in Ebbw Vale are going to help their situation and barring the extra taxes raised from economic venture being used to pay some more housing benefits or income support on a national balance sheet, the reality for most is that it wont impact on their lives at all.

It shouldn't be hard to see why protectionism appeals under these circumstances anymore than it should be easy to understand why UKIP holds a seat in parliament for somewhere in Suffolk if you ever wondered where most of the Refugee/Assylum facilities are in the UK.

There is an amount of racism to consider in Wales as there is anywhere. Much like any deprived area it becomes a recruitment paradise of disillusioned people. Some is down to the fact that integration simply hasn't reached many of these smaller communities in the really rural areas. Some is down to nationalism and ideology. But it is still a huge minority. To discount the votes of so many based on the reasoning of so few is doing a disservice to the intelligence and reasoning of good folk.

I was quite shocked at how many of the Londoners dismissed all of this with the line of 'it's the modern age, people need to retrain and up-skill'. Of course there is truth in that, but the reality for the swathes of people that refers to is that it's an unachievable target. Not that people can't change. But that it is not that simple if you find yourself in that situation. It makes me wonder if these people think we still live in a world where the job centre is a place you go to for a job. Or if they believe the lie of living within the benefit system to be an easy life in some way. Mostly they did not seem to grasp how a community with these problems can see through the facade of the system very clearly because of the situation they find themselves in. No amount of EU funding has ever or will ever change the decline of these areas.  Monetary reasoning is the least of their worries because they have no money.

I am not suggesting the fault for any of this lies at the feet of the EU, or that sane Welsh voters believe it either. But it's hard to argue with a Conservative farmer who questions whether the system of payments he receives from the EU to keep his farm open is the best option, or with the unionised Steelworker worried about his job due to globalisation and regulation, The landlords, hoteliers and retailers wondering how long to keep their businesses running as local services shut down and population numbers decline. It surprises me that people didn't expect the vote Wales delivered. It surprises me even more that people don't seem to consider much past their own lifestyle.

There are plenty of people who just didn't, don't and never will like the EU. Not the idea of working together or being part of a collective, but the institution itself and saw the referendum as the only opportunity in their lifetime to have a say on the matter. Add them to the racists, the nationalists and any other easily dismissed opinions. The reasons given to me while I have canvassed opinion over the last few months are really varied. What surprises me is no one really has the same reasoning, whatever the press would lead you to believe. In fact the left wing socialist ideology still embedded in many of it's citizens seems to be the most cited opinion I find. Not the watered down Blairite nonsense, The Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner red till I'm dead variety who ALWAYS campaigned against the corporate behemouth that was the EU. These things aren't forgotten quickly in the valleys where Thatcherite is the filthiest of words. No matter how much arts funding it may lose as a result.

[MakemineVanilla]

Perhaps we should have a Welsh choir to help sing this:

 

[ender4]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

This brought to mind a conversation when I was recently in London chatting about Brexit and such and just thought I'd chip in.

Great post Villamarv and gave me some insight into what i was unaware of.

[HanoiVillan]

That is an excellent post @VILLAMARV. I have plenty of quibbles, maybe for another time, but I do appreciate the time, effort and sincerity of that post 

[Rodders]

Agreed. As a Cardiff resident I've been deploying much of that limited reasoning (as in not fully appreciating how it is out in the sticks etc) myself. Thanks for the food for thought. I never felt I intentionally ignored those perspectives, maybe that was a little hubris, but laying it out like that is quite striking. Taking the bus from carmethen to lampeter I always wondered why the hell there were so many UKIP signs around. 

I still don't feel that B****t will lead to the changes they (and others) are after though. Can expect a lot of disappointment when bills still go up and the fundamentals of the market economy still robs them blind. But heyho. You never know. I guess is what they thought.

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

 ...... No matter how much arts funding it may lose as a result.

 

Arts Council Wales, based in Cardiff, funded by the Welsh Assembly. Below is one random selection from dozens I could have picked from their website.

Quote

Artis Community/Cymuned believes in the transformational power of creativity. We deliver high quality professional art experiences to communities across the South Wales Valleys and beyond, with regular classes in creative dance and dance theatre, as well as bespoke visual and public art projects and celebratory events. We are committed to ensuring that creativity plays a role socially, educationally, culturally by innovating, inspiring, including.

We'll have to ask the people that worked at Dunlop Tyres or at Hoover or British Steel, Alcoa, Berlei, Tower Colliery, BP, Dow Corning, Ford, Walkers Crisps, Rank Flour Mills, Seven Sisters Bakery, Ferrari's Bakery, Geest and Burberry if they've taken up the opportunity of creative dance classes.

Here's some street art installed in Hirwaun to commemorate pit ponies:

They had to be cast in a foundry in Halifax. The local foundry is now a heritage centre. 

Abergavenny: art installation to commemorate closed brewery £183,000

Newbridge 'green lamp' art installation of one green street lamp £125,000

Caerphilly: art trail £750,000

Abertillery: art installation to commemorate closed mine £185,000

millions upon millions being spent 

I've just looked up a regeneration proposal for Ferndale in Rhondda Cynon Taff.

The local govt document shows 42% of the population have 'no qualifications'. 47% described as sick, permanently ill or disabled. 35% no access to a car.

Amongst the improvements recommended for Ferndale: £160,000 for improved car parking and £155,000 of public artwork. 

The people must be shitting themselves that brexit will bring an end to all this wonderful art. 

 

I don't know but I'd be fairly sure there are similar stories for many many other similar places all over the UK.

[StefanAVFC]

For me, that's a shame.

I see the good the EU money has done for infrastructure projects and building projects in Lodz and it has made a difference, even in the 2ish years I've been here. I wish other people could see and feel the benefits as well.

Lodz airport

Lodz Fabryczna train station

OLD

Brand new last year

Renovated cross city tram line (brand new trams) and central tram station

All built in the last 5 years. The idea of the EU is fantastic. Less wealthy countries get given money, change their fortunes, pay more in and so on.

The execution is flawed and humans are selfish so don't want to help pay for a better life for other people.

I sympathise with rural Welsh people. I lived in Bangor for 3 years and saw some run down towns then. 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[VILLAMARV]

6 hours ago, Rodders said:

Agreed. As a Cardiff resident I've been deploying much of that limited reasoning (as in not fully appreciating how it is out in the sticks etc) myself. Thanks for the food for thought. I never felt I intentionally ignored those perspectives, maybe that was a little hubris, but laying it out like that is quite striking. Taking the bus from carmethen to lampeter I always wondered why the hell there were so many UKIP signs around. 

I still don't feel that B****t will lead to the changes they (and others) are after though. Can expect a lot of disappointment when bills still go up and the fundamentals of the market economy still robs them blind. But heyho. You never know. I guess is what they thought.

I got asked to remove a UKIP banner from the roadside last year. They had been along and put it on someone's land without asking which as liberal voters lets just say it didn't go down well. However, when we got there about 15mins after they had driven past and seen it up, it was already gone. Taken down by a local farmer who, after we worked out where it had gone, said to us "Well, I didn't think they'd want that up over by there so I ripped it down for you boys"

I don't believe changing things for the better was one of the options on the referendum myself, but then I am the eternal cynic  

As per my very long post I don't really have a view on who is right or wrong on the various issues, I don't profess to know why Wales did anything, but I like canvassing opinion. If it helps people see or slightly understand a different perspective then job done for me. We should always challenge our own preconceptions after all.

8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

That is an excellent post @VILLAMARV. I have plenty of quibbles, maybe for another time, but I do appreciate the time, effort and sincerity of that post 

quibble away at your leisure. I'm not particularly allied to any of it and reading it back there's a bit of poetic license and some dubious statements inferred as facts through absolutist language I could probably get my teeth into

[VILLAMARV]

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

For me, that's a shame. I see the good the EU money has done for infrastructure projects and building projects in Lodz and it has made a difference, even in the 2ish years I've been here. I wish other people could see and feel the benefits as well........All built in the last 5 years.

The idea of the EU is fantastic. Less wealthy countries get given money, change their fortunes, pay more in and so on. The execution is flawed and humans are selfish so don't want to help pay for a better life for other people.

I sympathise with rural Welsh people. I lived in Bangor for 3 years and saw some run down towns then.

It's hard to argue against the building or modernisation of key infrastructure. In the Welsh example there are obviously, as highlighted by @chrisp65, as I'm sure there must be in Poland, some obvious wasting of money on things like 'green lamp posts'. But there are massive regeneration projects that have benefitted certain areas. Money for updating an overloaded outdated transport system (roads and bridges) especially in rural areas, The regeneration of Cardiff Bay: starting with the £200million Barrage to flood the Penarth mud flats.

The rest of the near £2.5 billion that have been ploughed into it... (alleged ratio of 1:4 public/private sector monies)

 

Senedd

Millenium Centre

I'm not for a second suggesting these public funds are solely from the EU. I'm sure if people particularly wanted to audit it it would show EU money, Lottery Funding and Welsh Govt spending for the examples above. All that environmentally significant for birds mud-flats, the displacement of the local Somali community built up around the then derelict, now 'waterfront property' docklands for an opera house, a sort of 'devolved parliament' building and a nice new place for the people with yachts to park their yachts and go out for a meal at your choice of any chain restaurant. So even though the pictures look shiny, the populus's opinion of it may not be as shiny. There may be bitterness beyond the figures on a spreadsheet.

£21m EU investment in railway stations, £83m towards 'hoping' to create 'up to' 94,000 apprenticeship schemes over 4 years, £60m odd between various Universities including Swansea's Bay campus built with a £40m loan from the EU etc etc.

Cool stuff like Wales's first tidal energy generator in Ramsey Sound with over £6m of EU funding:

The list really is endless. Well it isn't! but that's the poetic license I was referring to above! However the point in understanding the mindset of the majority of the Welsh voting populous is not whether they are 'good' or 'bad' projects per se. Obviously closed minded protectionism and/or racism can create statements like 'Why are we building airports in Poland when we could be doing more here?', but is not necessarily the only source. There is a valid question which asks why our taxes and road taxes aren't being spent directly by our own Govt if the spending is truly needed. Which in the wake of the PFI debacle is even more valid. All the money earmarked for the much needed M4 relief road from Newport tunnel is publicly being drawn out in the press as, it seems due to journalism still working, loads of Welsh MP's buy up all the land on the chosen preferred route before they vote on it, so linking it back to @blandy 's original statement - "growing inequality & political disenchantment, disconnection and corruption," you kind of have the perfect storm in Wales.

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

The idea of the EU is fantastic. Less wealthy countries get given money, change their fortunes, pay more in and so on. The execution is flawed and humans are selfish so don't want to help pay for a better life for other people.

Some are. Most aren't and I find a good way to find out is to ask people their opinions of what the NHS was/is/and should be. Most people in the UK agree we shouldn't leave people to die in the street. That displays a basic humanity and empathy for those less fortunate.

However in relation to Lodz airport there 'I hope the (minute) amount of my taxes' (blah blah blah) went towards the claret and blue lighting scheme

 

 

[tinker]

Villamarv, thanks for the post . I have struggled to understand why people would vote out and your post has made me start to understand why. 

In a way you have restored my faith in most of the 52% who voted out.

[chrisp65]

Of the infrastructure projects listed above by @VILLAMARV I know it's only a small select sample, but it's worth working through them.

The M4 relief road and improvements still haven't happened. But their intention is to make it quicker and easier for Cardiff business and commuters to get passed Newport. It's going to cost over a billion. It's for the benefit of Cardiff, don't let anyone tell you any different.

The Senedd is in Cardiff and cost £70 million. That figure doesn't include the other satellite government buildings that surround it, the infrastructure to put it there, the alteration of existing roads to give priority to traffic to and from the government buildings. As well as the Senedd, Cardiff also got the Opera House. Sorry, no we don't call it that, that was too elitist. We have the Millenium Centre built at a cost of £120 million. It's been built on the old dry dock. Hopefully the dockers all got good jobs in the impressive array of franchised food outlets that now skirt the Bay. Or, they could get work as extras at the new BBC Headquarters built down the Bay at a cost of £50 million.

So a vast building project, totalling over £250 million in Cardiff. The promise of a new billion pound road to get straight there (it will literally take you straight to the car park closest to the Senedd). What is the net result? An arts hub, a government building, a BBC Headquarters. Yet still the people of Merthyr, Cwmbran and Neath voted leave. Ignorant bastards.

The money ploughed in to Cardiff and Penarth and the Vale of Glamorgan has been impressive and has genuinely transformed that area. There's a very positive buzz and lots of self supporting business start ups. But it's a tight little bubble. There are some very mediocre houses in my town, built for dock labourers that now command a £250,000 asking price. There are multi million pound houses all over the Vale. But drive 45 minutes west to Swansea and you can get a sea front modern apartment with private parking, a balcony and stunning sea views for £110,000. Or head 45 minutes north to Aberdare and buy a 3 bedroom house and get change from £60k. The prosperity almost literally drops off a cliff. It's like the Hunger Games.

Incidentally, Cardiff, Penarth, Barry and the Vale all voted remain. 

 

Unfortunately, the 'cool' Ramsey Sound turbines only worked for 12 weeks. They broke and the private company that had received £8 million pound of public money collapsed.They're still sat on the sea bed if anyone wants them.

 

 

 

 

 

[tonyh29]

12 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

For me, that's a shame.

I see the good the EU money has done for infrastructure projects and building projects in Lodz and it has made a difference, even in the 2ish years I've been here. I wish other people could see and feel the benefits as well.

Lodz airport

Lodz Fabryczna train station

OLD

Brand new last year

Renovated cross city tram line (brand new trams) and central tram station

All built in the last 5 years. The idea of the EU is fantastic. Less wealthy countries get given money, change their fortunes, pay more in and so on.

The execution is flawed and humans are selfish so don't want to help pay for a better life for other people.

I sympathise with rural Welsh people. I lived in Bangor for 3 years and saw some run down towns then. 

 

But with all that money being chucked into Poland for shiny new stations , it still has some of the poorest regions in Europe , and low wages .. around 2m young people leaving a year to find work abroad ... only around a third of those people return ..meanwhile the Polish deficit is increasing , but as it's capped (?)  at 55% debt to GDP ,that presumably means cutting budgets long term  , austerity , recession ?

I dunno , I just smell trouble in the long run , maybe in 2020 when the next EU funding budget is reviewed and presumably cut  ?

At the last election , PO's  vote share dropped around 15% didn't it  , whilst PiS a Euro sceptic party increased by 7% and won the election  .. I'm not boots on the ground over there as you are , but it seems like the Welsh , perhaps the people aren't as grateful for all this EU money as they should be ?

maybe it's more than money ?

 

 

 

[lapal_fan]

46 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

But with all that money being chucked into Poland for shiny new stations , it still has some of the poorest regions in Europe , and low wages .. around 2m young people leaving a year to find work abroad ... only around a third of those people return ..meanwhile the Polish deficit is increasing , but as it's capped (?)  at 55% debt to GDP ,that presumably means cutting budgets long term  , austerity , recession ?

I dunno , I just smell trouble in the long run , maybe in 2020 when the next EU funding budget is reviewed and presumably cut  ?

At the last election , PO's  vote share dropped around 15% didn't it  , whilst PiS a Euro sceptic party increased by 7% and won the election  .. I'm not boots on the ground over there as you are , but it seems like the Welsh , perhaps the people aren't as grateful for all this EU money as they should be ?

maybe it's more than money ?

 

 

 

In ways I agree with both @StefanAVFC and @tonyh29. 

I agree that centralizing money for large infrastructure projects is probably the only way to go.  There will always be HUBs (major cities) which seem to get the most benefit, whereas as@chrisp65 has pointed out, there is much needed money not going into poor areas. 

I think in the UK, we need to see more autonomy given to the councils.  The councils could then ensure that money is spent "well" in areas (even though historically, this hasn't happened) it was needed. 

Making London bigger, shinier and easier to get to from the "poopholes" of Britain isn't exactly going to benefit those places, it'll just make leaving those places to get to London even easier, which means more businesses will go there, because people go there.

What Chrisp said about the Hunger games bares true really (although we're not held anywhere against our wills) - that there are super cities and everywhere else is left to slowly die. 

I don't know the answer.  Where there is government, there is inefficiency.  Can you even begin to imagine how much "public money" has been wasted since the end of WW2?  I suppose with the internet and technology the way it is now, why do we need to be spread all over the place?  Why do we need docks all over the place?  Why do we need mines when we can get resource from Russia for cheaper?  Why do we need manufacturing plants when we can bulk buy from China for cheaper?  Why do we need jewelers or engineers or tool makers or anything "industrial"?

It's the biggest "test" the nation has ever faced.  There's a reason we're call a service country now, we're alright (yet expensive) at sitting behind computers all day.

[StefanAVFC]

57 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

But with all that money being chucked into Poland for shiny new stations , it still has some of the poorest regions in Europe , and low wages .. around 2m young people leaving a year to find work abroad ... only around a third of those people return ..meanwhile the Polish deficit is increasing , but as it's capped (?)  at 55% debt to GDP ,that presumably means cutting budgets long term  , austerity , recession ?

All of this is my opinion and what I see on a daily basis, rather than based on any firm fact. 

The money is heading into the cities. People in Poland are flocking to two places. Abroad or the cities.

The cities are flourishing in Poland.Jobs are being created at lightning pace, My work, for example, ticked over 1,000 employees in December 2015. The companies who have moved to Lodz in the last few years? TomTom, HP, Fujitsu, Dell etc etc. The main skill needed for these jobs, not IT, language. My girlfriend and her friends all got the language skills they need from state-provided high school. Again, this is focused pretty much on the cities. City Poland and non-City Poland are like totally different places. The people are totally different. 

Your unemployed, your 'left-behinds' are the non-city folk, or the non-qualified folk as they're not seeing the benefits of the huge investment into the cities.

57 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

At the last election , PO's  vote share dropped around 15% didn't it  , whilst PiS a Euro sceptic party increased by 7% and won the election  .. I'm not boots on the ground over there as you are , but it seems like the Welsh , perhaps the people aren't as grateful for all this EU money as they should be ?

The more I think about it, the more similarities I see between Poland and the States with regards to politics. Two major parties are centre-right/right, cities are one party, countryside PiS' 'win' came about for various reasons.

Their usual base voting in their usual numbers - 
A populist party called Kukiz 15 took votes from PO from the Under 30s.
A policy called Family 500+ - that families get 500ZL monthly for their 2nd child and each subsequent child. 

This combination gave PiS their win. Saying 'PiS, a eurosceptic party increased by 7%', although an accurate statement, is a misrepresentation. They didn't get in because of their euroskepticism. It wasn't their platform. If they had campaigned on a platform of euroskepticism, they would have lost. Also, they're a soft-eurosceptic party.

PiS, though Eurosceptic (to an extent) would be mad to take Poland out of the EU. As I said before, even with the Eurosceptism that many Poles have (even a lot of friends are VERY skeptical) they all acknowledge that Poland has benefited hugely from the EU. The Euroscepticism comes from two facets. General suspicion of Brussels and fierce nationalism. Poles have been shit on throughout history and they're very proud. If you've been shit on numerous times, you want to protect yourself. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. (much more than I understand fierce nationalism in the UK, for example)

However, even with these factors, Poles still strongly support membership of the EU - I read a few times that popularity for the EU polled at 82% as recently as last year but I can't find the poll.

In conclusion, yes, you're right on a couple of things, but euroscepticism within Poland is very much a soft movement. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[blandy]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

.... only a small select sample, but it's worth working through them.

The M4 relief road and improvements still haven't happened. But their intention is to make it quicker and easier for Cardiff business and commuters to get passed Newport. It's going to cost over a billion. It's for the benefit of Cardiff, don't let anyone tell you any different.

The Senedd is in Cardiff and cost £70 million. That figure doesn't include the other satellite government buildings that surround it, the infrastructure to put it there, the alteration of existing roads to give priority to traffic to and from the government buildings. As well as the Senedd, Cardiff also got the Opera House. Sorry, no we don't call it that, that was too elitist. We have the Millenium Centre built at a cost of £120 million. It's been built on the old dry dock. Hopefully the dockers all got good jobs in the impressive array of franchised food outlets that now skirt the Bay. Or, they could get work as extras at the new BBC Headquarters built down the Bay at a cost of £50 million.

So a vast building project, totalling over £250 million in Cardiff. The promise of a new billion pound road to get straight there (it will literally take you straight to the car park closest to the Senedd). What is the net result? An arts hub, a government building, a BBC Headquarters. ....

The money ploughed in to Cardiff and Penarth and the Vale of Glamorgan has been impressive and has genuinely transformed that area. .....head 45 minutes north to Aberdare and buy a 3 bedroom house and get change from £60k. The prosperity almost literally drops off a cliff. It's like the Hunger Games.

The thing with that, and with the Poland example Stefan posted is that it's not that the EU money is bad, or has done something that's worth leaving the EU for (is it?) it's more that, particularly with the UK the general economic recovery has been very patchy, with the Capital of England, and of Wales and a few othr places - Manchester say, getting the best part of it and pretty much everywhere else seeing nothing.

We've got the South East  with crazy house prices - plus your example of Cardiff the same, bubbles of prosperity and new money and everywhere else getting shafted by cuts to this that and the other and crumbling infrastructure.

The benefits have been distributed very unevenly, more by Gov't doing than any fault of the EU, perhaps.

[VILLAMARV]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Unfortunately, the 'cool' Ramsey Sound turbines only worked for 12 weeks. They broke and the private company that had received £8 million pound of public money collapsed.They're still sat on the sea bed if anyone wants them.

Lol. Also crying.

Edit: That was a genuine attempt at finding something cool quickly to balance out my point

Edited February 7, 2017 by VILLAMARV

[chrisp65]

Nothing quite says 'living in his metropolitan elite bubble' like dunking a grab n go petrol station samosa into a pot noodle.

Living the dream.

[MakemineVanilla]

Poland have gained substantially from their membership of the EU.

They have been integrated into German and Dutch industry's supply chain, which gives them a trade surplus of $5bn.

In 2015 they received € 3.718 billion net from the EU.

Add in the remittance payments ($1.2bn from UK alone) being sent home from workers abroad and Poland is doing great.

It definitely looks like Poland is a great place to live, especially for those living in the cities.

The best thing looks to be the fact that number for the nominal GDP figures doubles when the cost of living is taken into account (purchasing power parity).

In other words a Euro buys twice as much in Poland as it does in other European countries.

Inequality is almost half the level it is in the UK.

I can't think of a single reason why they would want to leave.

[StefanAVFC]

15 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

It definitely looks like Poland is a great place to live, especially for those living in the cities.

It really is. Wages aren't high, but living costs are cheap as anything. I have a comfier life here than I would in a major city, in the same job, in the UK.