The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[tonyh29]

Just now, darrenm said:

Nigel Farage has no role in the policy making of the UK government. He's still managed to help **** everything up.

at the time he was at least leader of a party that in some instances taking second spot in elections ... with 5 m votes under the form of (fairer) government many on here argued that we should have had , his party may well have had  82 seats

Edited February 9, 2017 by tonyh29

[ml1dch]

39 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

so none then

I think in the context of you quoting the lead Brexit negotiator the very least you could do for a counter would be to quote someone actually in government ... might just as well have said "here is the view of my mate Dave down the pub "

That seems reasonable.

On the proviso of course that any time you want to opine upon or criticise the comments of anybody other than those in power you hold yourself to the same high standards.

[tonyh29]

Just now, ml1dch said:

That seems reasonable.

On the proviso of course that any time you want to opine upon or criticise the comments of anybody other than those in power you hold yourself to the same high standards.

 he used the words of a campaign /protest  group  leader as an example of the British reaction to a statement from a man responsible for Brexit negotiations

 

Surely you can see the difference ?

[Enda]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

Surely you can see the difference ?

As you're not seeing a difference between a prominent Leave campaigner and your mate Dave down the pub, I don't think you should be throwing stones.

[ml1dch]

10 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 he used the words of a campaign /protest  group  leader as an example of the British reaction to a statement from a man responsible for Brexit negotiations

 

Surely you can see the difference ?

I assume he was using the words as an example of the sort of repulsive ****wittery that can still be found as a reaction to a pretty gracious and sensible compromise. Not as an example of how we are going to conduct any negotiations.

I would expect (and certainly hope) that anybody with any form of influence over anything wouldn't be acting like an ignorant moron, like that person evidently is.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

remind me what role Jayne Adye is playing in the policy making  of the UK government  ?

 

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

so none then

I think in the context of you quoting the lead Brexit negotiator the very least you could do for a counter would be to quote someone actually in government ... might just as well have said "here is the view of my mate Dave down the pub "

to be fair, Murdoch isn't officially elected to any position in the UK government either

 

but it's turned out today it was his hand up Gove's arse directing the questions and the gurning when Gove 'interviewed' Trump

 

sometimes, some people outside of the government can form government opinion and direction

[tonyh29]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

to be fair, Murdoch isn't officially elected to any position in the UK government either

 

but it's turned out today it was his hand up Gove's arse directing the questions and the gurning when Gove 'interviewed' Trump

 

sometimes, some people outside of the government can form government opinion and direction

I think comparing the man whose been running this country for the last 25 years with a woman i'd never even heard of until an hour is so  ago is stretching things a little 

[tonyh29]

49 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

I assume he was using the words as an example of the sort of repulsive ****wittery that can still be found as a reaction to a pretty gracious and sensible compromise. Not as an example of how we are going to conduct any negotiations.

I would expect (and certainly hope) that anybody with any form of influence over anything wouldn't be acting like an ignorant moron, like that person evidently is.

So what you are saying is I should take a gracious and sensible comment  from a member of government and compare it to the response from a deranged Member of a Belgian protest group ?

 

got ya ... guess my first problem  is finding a gracious sensible member of government 

[ml1dch]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

So what you are saying is I should take a gracious and sensible comment  from a member of government and compare it to the response from a deranged Member of a Belgian protest group ? 

I'm not saying you should do anything.

Although I'm pretty sure that if you did (for some unfathomable reason) want to spend your time doing the above, people's immediate reaction wouldn't be to whinge that you weren't being representative enough.

And if they did, I'd laugh at them as well.

[TrentVilla]

34 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

So what you are saying is I should take a gracious and sensible comment  from a member of government and compare it to the response from a deranged Member of a Belgian protest group ?

 

got ya ... guess my first problem  is finding a gracious sensible member of government 

Then bloody Tories aye....

[TrentVilla]

1 hour ago, Enda said:

As you're not seeing a difference between a prominent Leave campaigner and your mate Dave down the pub, I don't think you should be throwing stones.

You got Tony all wrong, Dave down the pub isn't his mate unless it's David Cameron in which case you might have a point.

In which case Tony tell David to ease of the scratchings.

[chrisp65]

woman in Question Time audience: 'We ruled the world for thousands of years like a guiding light until this EU'

 

I think that closes the debate with a win for Brexit.

[HanoiVillan]

12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

woman in Question Time audience: 'We ruled the world for thousands of years like a guiding light until this EU'

 

I think that closes the debate with a win for Brexit.

Where do they get them from?

Edited February 9, 2017 by HanoiVillan

[VILLAMARV]

38 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Where do they get them from?

hours of vetting

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

hours of vetting

'Have you ever read a book?'

'Yes'

'You're out, better luck next time'

[VILLAMARV]

Quote

The EU Referendum,
Through the Eyes of The Political Compass

Like The Political Compass itself, the EU comprises a social dimension and an economic dimension.

Remain voters were themselves divided between:

1. Those enthusiastically embracing the EU's prevailing economics (neoliberal/free trade) but unhappy with the Social Charter and Chapter — especially on migration. This is a position held by many Conservatives.
2. Those happy with both the economic and social provisions, which includes many people on the centre/right of the Labour Party, almost all Lib Dems and some wet Tories
3. Those enthused by at least most of the EU's social provisions, but rejecting corporate values and neoliberal economics (left-of-centre social liberals eg Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn).

Brexit voters were similarly divided between:

4. Those rejecting the EU's prevailing economics but accepting, at least to some extent, the social dimension (many Laboure supporters)
5. Those rejecting both (quintessentially UKIP)
6. Those comfortable with many of the EU's economic provisions, if only they could easily exit the Social Chapter (Conservative)

The attitudes of C and D, and also those of A and F, are similar; though because of contrasting degrees of feeling they resulted in a different vote.

Fundamentally, our social scale measures the extent to which diversity in social and cultural matters is a stimulus (libertarian) or a threat (authoritarian). These instincts inform our attitudes to all kinds of issue — from abstract art to sexual identity, foreign cultures, and crime and punishment. There is little doubt that the average Brexiter would show a less socially liberal score in our test. In the EU referendum, the social debate was largely about national identity, cultural diversity, sovereignty and, of course, migration.

The referendum also served as a vehicle for expressing discontent — or plain contempt — for the spiralling rich-poor gap, out-of-touch politicians and self-serving bureaucrats, and general anger among those alienated and left behind. Anti-Westminster sentiments were re-directed towards the EU which, after all, largely simply reflects the prevailing politics of its members. The referendum made more clear than ever the uneasy alliance of Labour voters — the marginalised and socially conservative in the northern regions, and the liberal centre-left élite in the metropolitan areas. While these two distinct categories might find little to disagree upon in economics, on the social scale the urban élite Labour voter is likely to have more in common with Lib Dems or the Tory "left".

Although it went almost unnoticed, UKIP leader Nigel Farage's extraordinary victory speech included reference to having 'fought against multinationals and big merchant banks'. That, from a figure generally seen to be to the right of the Tories! This is the populist formula common to all of Europe's other right wing 'anti-establishment parties' … picking up some of the discarded economic baggage of ideologically threadbare mainstream left parties, and wrapping them in the flag. It's an appeal to those who are afraid, angry and left behind. It's called national socialism. Without the constraints of Brussels, could the UK be moving towards its late Weimar phase? Certainly a classic prelude to authoritarian government is an enfeebled mainstream opposition.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart

Just some guff from some website but highlights a little of the diversity of both 'camps'

(It's formatted A-F as 1-6 but you get the idea)

[VILLAMARV]

Quote

'Damaging' Brexit could fuel independence talk, Wood says

Independence for Wales could be on the agenda if Theresa May proceeds with a "damaging" Brexit, the Plaid Cymru leader has said.

Leanne Wood said Wales was not being "sufficiently listened to" ahead of UK negotiations to leave the EU.

She told BBC Radio Wales that Westminster politics was not heading in a "very positive direction" for Wales.

Ms Wood campaigned in the referendum to remain in the EU, but a majority in Wales as across the UK voted to leave.

'Lots we need to do'

Speaking to the Jason Mohammad programme, Ms Wood said: "There's lots that we need to do in terms of our economy before we can become an independent nation.

"But I think now is a good time to start to have that discussion, certainly if the prime minister proceeds with a Brexit that is going to be damaging to this country.

"Because to be honest with you the way in which politics is developing in Westminster at the moment is not in a very positive direction as far as I can see from Wales' perspective."

Ms Wood said Wales was in a "different situation" to Scotland, which had an independence referendum in 2014.

"We've not had a campaign, we've not really had a debate about Welsh independence like they have in Scotland," she said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38955980

And there's a very good reason that debate has not been held.

It's hardly groundbreaking news from the Welsh Nationalist Party to attempt to put independence on the agenda but seriously.

Leanne Wood by all accounts is a very nice personable person and that shone through when they gave her a platform to speak in the EU leaders debate. She could use her increased profile to actually talk about some serious issues. Unfortunately, for all their posturing on green issues and left leaning policies, there's no way they can ever truly claim to be representing the 'unrepresented socialist values of Wales' if it's always going to end up rubbing up against their nationalist agenda.

[StefanAVFC]

Wales would seriously struggle on their own.

[chrisp65]

 

I think support for independence is currently bumping along at between 3% and 28% depending on who's phrased the question and who's polling you want to use to support your argument.

I think support for greater powers for the assembly is around 50% / 60% based on that same caveat.

I'd be up for it.

 

[StefanAVFC]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I think support for independence is currently bumping along at between 3% and 28% depending on who's phrased the question and who's polling you want to use to support your argument.

I think support for greater powers for the assembly is around 50% / 60% based on that same caveat.

I'd be up for it.

 

I would agree that all the individual countries within the Union need greater powers.