Gun violence in the USA

[sne]

Remington Arms has filed for bankruptcy after poor results and being sued by the parents after the Sandy Hooks massacre where their "Bushmaster" rifle was used.

Quote

Remington, the two-century-old U.S. gun manufacturer, has filed for bankruptcy protection.

The move—which Remington predicted last month—was revealed Sunday on the website of the United States Bankruptcy Court in Delaware, which listed Chapter 11 filings for Remington’s various businesses. The site did not include any details, and the company has not yet made an official announcement.

Remington told investors Friday that it had a negative operating cash flow of $7.4 million. Its 2017 revenues totalled $603.4 million, down just over 30% from the previous year.

Gunmakers, Remington included, have been seeing sales drop during the presidency of Donald Trump. Sales typically rise when it seems that new gun control legislation is more likely, and the current president has generally aligned himself with the firearms lobby.

Nonetheless, the industry is also facing great pressure from the gun control lobby. Remington’s filing came the day after thousands of high school students marched in Washington, D.C., for stronger gun restrictions. The protest was sparked by the February massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.

The Sandy Hook shooting in 2012 had more of a direct impact on Remington, as one of its Bushmaster rifles was used in that massacre. As a result, a class action lawsuit against the firm is still underway.

“We do not expect this filing to affect the families’ case in any material way,” said Katie-Mesner Hage, an attorney with Koskoff Koskoff & Bieder, which represents the Sandy Hook families involved in that suit.

Remington has a debt pile of $950 million that it said in January it was trying to restructure.

Last month, when it announced its impending Chapter 11 filing, Remington said it hoped to shed $700 million in a prepackaged reorganization—a technique that is designed to get a company out of bankruptcy as soon as possible. Under that plan, Remington’s private equity owner, Cerberus Capital, would no longer own Remington and its creditors would get equity in exchange for scrapping its debts.

http://fortune.com/2018/03/26/remington-bankruptcy-guns-firearms/

Possibly a way to avoid having to pay such a high compensation if they lose the court case?

[Chindie]

What would be the basis for suing Remington in the Sandy Hook case?

I mean I'm not going to mourn the death of a gun manufacturer, but I dunno, on the face of things, how they can be sued when one of their products, which presumably is legally sold, is used in a massacre.

[sne]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

What would be the basis for suing Remington in the Sandy Hook case?

I mean I'm not going to mourn the death of a gun manufacturer, but I dunno, on the face of things, how they can be sued when one of their products, which presumably is legally sold, is used in a massacre.

Isn't this just how it works in the US?

If it rains you sue the weather guy...

Not sure on the details in this case but from what I read it is about marketing towards certain groups that probably should not have guns?

Quote

CNN)Lawyers representing the families of the Sandy Hook school shooting victims had another chance to say why they believe gun companies should be held accountable in Connecticut Supreme Court on Tuesday, a month shy of the fifth anniversary of the shooting that killed 26 people, 20 of them children.

Since 2014, the victims' families have been pursuing legal action against Remington, which produces the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle that 20-year-old Adam Lanza used in the shooting. The case was thrown out by a lower court last year, when a judge sided with Remington's position that gunmakers are immune to the lawsuit because of a provision in the federal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.
The act, signed by George W. Bush in 2005, largely prohibits lawsuits against gun manufacturers and distributors whose firearms are used in a criminal act.
The plaintiffs' attorneys appealed to the state's Supreme Court, arguing for an exemption to the act through a claim of "negligent entrustment." They argue that Remington knowingly marketed and sold the AR-15 to a particularly vulnerable group of young men. They also believe the sale of the gun to civilians is negligent because it is primarily "designed for our armed forces and engineered to deliver maximum carnage."
What the Sandy Hook gun lawsuit can borrow from the Big Tobacco fight
What the Sandy Hook gun lawsuit can borrow from the Big Tobacco fight
"In the military, a weapon of this type is quite rightly subject to strict rules around its use and storage," Ian Hockley, the parent of a Sandy Hook victim, said after the hearing. "The manufacturer of the Bushmaster takes no such precautions when unleashing their product into the civilian market."
The attorneys also stated that they have enough reason to bring the case against Remington based on how the company markets the rifle, both in advertisements and with product placement in popular video games like "Call of Duty." They argue that a trial, and the evidence that would be produced for one, will show that the company is directly marketing to this vulnerable group of people.
What could we learn from federally funded gun research? 
What could we learn from federally funded gun research?
"We hope to get behind the doors of the closed meetings that Remington would have had. We hope to see the emails. We want to see the focus groups," plaintiffs' attorney Josh Koskoff said after the hearing. "We want to see the degree to which they deliberately were trying to ring the bells of users with the characteristics of an Adam Lanza."
Defense attorneys argued that the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act protects Remington and the other companies involved in the sale of the gun that ended up in Lanza's hands from this exact kind of lawsuit. Defense attorney James Vogts stated that the lawsuit would require a reinterpretation of the law itself.
"No matter how tragic, no matter how much we wish those children and their teachers were not lost, their families had not suffered, the law needs to be applied dispassionately," Vogts said in court. "Under the law ... the manufacturer and the sellers of the firearm used by the criminal that day are not legally responsible for his crimes and the harm that he caused."
Vogts stated that the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle is primarily used for hunting, target practice and home defense, not only for military use. In court, he argued that people most commonly use this type of rifle for deer hunting.
 

"They could not care less what happens to their guns once the cash is in the bank, showing an utter disregard for the lives this weapon takes and the families it destroys," Hockley said after the hearing. "We, the plaintiff families of the victims of the Sandy Hook school massacre, have infinite patience to see justice done."

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/14/health/sandy-hook-gun-hearing-begins-in-connecticut/index.html

 

[Chindie]

Thanks.

I don't think they're going to win that case.

[Genie]

22 minutes ago, sne said:

Isn't this just how it works in the US?

If it rains you sue the weather guy...

Yes, exactly.

We heard of a case where we work when a guy who was high on drugs and alcohol crashed his car into a wall and killed someone. The owner of the wall was sued because if it wasn’t there then the pissed up junkie wouldn’t have crashed into it and killed someone. 

I imagine with the gun case it will be argued that if the manufacturer didn’t make that gun then the people in this specific incident may not have been shot. 

[mjmooney]

I studied a bit of US case law as part of my degree. Before the 1950s, commonsense mostly prevailed. Then there was a case where some guy bought a big petrol lawnmower, and it wouldn't fit through his front gate. So he lifted over the low garden wall - and put his back out, resulting in time off work and loss of earnings. His lawyer advised him to sue the manufacturer for not putting a "heavy - do not lift" warning on the mower. To everyone's surprise, he won. This opened the floodgates of litigation culture, and the rest is history. 

[Chindie]

Back on topic, the lead singer of Eagles of Death Metal appears to be a colossal clearing in the woods. He seems to have spent yesterday on social media having an anti gun control tantrum, to the extent of saying the students of the Florida school that sparked this latest resurgence are using the deaths of their classmates for fame.

Does being a word removed come with gun loving, or is idiocy just a common denominator?

[Rodders]

Think he also called one of the kids guilty of treason but also spoke of defending his social media account with whole "I may disagree with, you but fight for right to defend it" spiel. Which is consistent with nobhead-philosophy 101: appropriate a principle to support your beliefs, but never apply it to those you don't like and blindly ignore the hypocrisy in the process. 

[blandy]

Er, so the topic is Gun violence please folks, not hot drinks. Thanks

[Dr_Pangloss]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

Back on topic, the lead singer of Eagles of Death Metal appears to be a colossal clearing in the woods. He seems to have spent yesterday on social media having an anti gun control tantrum, to the extent of saying the students of the Florida school that sparked this latest resurgence are using the deaths of their classmates for fame.

Does being a word removed come with gun loving, or is idiocy just a common denominator?

Do you know if he was like this prior to the Bataclan incident?

[sne]

10 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Do you know if he was like this prior to the Bataclan incident?

He was.

I really enjoy their music, but both him and Josh Homme has some IMO effed up opinions on this subject.

[El Zen]

13 minutes ago, sne said:

He was.

I really enjoy their music, but both him and Josh Homme has some IMO effed up opinions on this subject.

Josh Homme wrote one of the best albums ever recorded and I still can’t stand the guy. Not that all my favourite musicians always have to be nice people, I love the Smiths too much for that, but Homme really rubs me the wrong way, the libertarian word removed. 

[bobzy]

A US police officer shot dead an unarmed man walking in traffic with his trousers down, and his family says it looks like "premeditated murder".

Police dashcam video shows Danny Ray Thomas, 34, walking towards the officer on a road in Houston, Texas, last Thursday before a gunshot rings out.

Deputy Cameron Brewer repeatedly shouts "get down on the ground" before firing. Both the officer and victim are black.

(Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43574249)

[legov]

Quote

Two shootings in London in the space of an hour have left a 17-year-old girl dead and a boy, 16, critically ill. The teenage girl, named locally as Tanesha, was found with a bullet wound in Tottenham on Monday night and pronounced dead at the scene. The boy had been found with gunshot wounds in Walthamstow earlier, with another boy, 15, who had stab injuries. Both attacks come amid concerns over rising violent crime in London. Police say the shootings are not linked. In Tottenham, a police cordon remains in place in Chalgrove Road, near Northumberland Park, where Tanesha was pronounced dead at 22:43 BST.

A 21-year-old woman called Tyesha, who knew the murdered girl, told the BBC the victim was "just chilling with her friends" when she was shot from a car for "no reason at all". "The car just pulled up and just started shooting," she said. "Her friend came banging on my door so I came out quickly. I even tried to save her - had to, had to." Tyesha said the gunshot wound, below the victim's breast, was not immediately visible and it looked like she was "having a fit". "I put her on her side and I was just rubbing her back, saying 'Everything's going to be OK'. I just can't believe it - so young. It's ridiculous now."

A witness said a woman, believed to be the victim's mother, began "screaming" when she discovered the girl shortly after the shooting. David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham, said he was "deeply worried" about London's rise in violent crime - particularly in his area. "There is no single cause, but there has been a big spike in both gun crime and knife crime across London," he said. "Certainly my constituency finds itself at the epicentre of that. There are real issues about a lack of resources." The community in Tottenham has already been gripped with grief and shock that a young female has had her life ended so tragically. I'm told there were dozens of people out until 02:00 BST consoling each other, while other residents woke to see police cordons and press at the scene. There was a poignant silence when the body of the 17-year-old was taken away, broken only by the sound of people crying. In this area there are people - no matter what age - who are fearful. Residents spoke about self-imposed curfews and mothers not letting their children out after 19:00.

Amid the sadness, there is also anger and questions over what the Mayor of London is doing. A local resident, who did not want to be named, said she heard multiple shots, which sounded like a "bomb" exploding. She said: "It's not nice. I've lived here for 40 years, and in the last two or three years it's become not a nice place. "There are so many drugs, stabbings and killings." Another neighbour, who did not want to be named, said stabbings were common in the area. The Tottenham resident said: "It's so violent around here. I nearly got stabbed the other day. If you've been around Tottenham a long time you get it." 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43624392

I was shocked to read this. Could anyone tell an outsider like me what the gun laws in the UK are like? How is it even possible to obtain a firearm other than for hunting purposes? It makes me wonder if it is unfair for those of us living outside the US to deride American gun laws so much. Are we that much safer and free from violent/gun crime?

[a m ole]

19 minutes ago, legov said:

Are we that much safer and free from violent/gun crime?

i’d hazard that we are, much much safer, but not enough.

[legov]

8 minutes ago, a m ole said:

i’d hazard that we are, much much safer, but not enough.

I don't know about that - London now has a higher murder rate than New York City

[lapal_fan]

2 minutes ago, legov said:

I don't know about that - London now has a higher murder rate than New York City

It's a weird metric to use, 2 months, whilst we still have less actual murders.. 

But any who - In the UK it's still hard for "normal" people to get access to guns.  Illegal guns are apparently quite widespread according to police officers I know, but they are rarely used.  

That said, these crimes are increasing in the UK, and until the crime rate is 0, then there's always work to be done.  But I'd wager the UK gun laws are much more effective at protecting the people than the US ones are.  Hence why not many of us die to guns compared to US citizens.  

[Davkaus]

40 minutes ago, legov said:

 

It makes me wonder if it is unfair for those of us living outside the US to deride American gun laws so much. Are we that much safer and free from violent/gun crime?

 

When was the last gun related death in the UK before these two? How many do we have annually, per capita?

On average 318 people are shot per day in America.

Are we much safer? Yeah. Absolutely we are.

11 minutes ago, legov said:

I don't know about that - London now has a higher murder rate than New York City

It's definitely concerning, but those stats don't tell the whole story, do they?

For a specific 2 month period, London has a higher murder rate thaqn New York. For the first time ever. Let's look at some of the other months shall we? what about the violent crime rate of the entire US, versus the entire UK? I suspect those stats don't tell the same story.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Davkaus

[Chindie]

I must have missed all those mass casualty gun incidents the UK is plagued with.

You can't uninvent the gun. And criminals tend not to follow the law. The difference is the UK tends not to have that many incidents where someone flips and gets their perfectly legally owned killing machine and show the world their rage. There are less guns, and they are used less.

Criticising US gun law is absolutely valid.

[legov]

Relax guys, I was playng devil's advocate, I'm no gun advocate.

Thanks for the thought-provoking responses.