chrisp65 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Could be straying off piste, but I'm not aware of any religion that sets down abortion for foetus of a particular sex? Other than scientology I don't think the kit existed when most of the books were written. Yes, fashion covers people imposing fashions on religions. It also covers spurious economic reasons dressed up as religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I assume by fashion you meant religious grounds , which was what the law was trying to prevent which is interesting to a degree , MP's voted against blocking abortion on religious grounds yet in that interview Mogg stated he was a practising Catholic (which probably rules him out of being PM anyway) and thus is expressing a view based on his religious view Now , we here on VT have our views around religion and people that live by an outdated view and imaginary deities , but there are still some people who live by religion , if we deny Mogg his religious views , should we deny muslims or Hindu's theirs ? etc etc I don't recall anyone denying JRM his view, I just saw a bunch of people allowing him to express it and finding it objectionable. Disagreeing with a view and denying people from it are very different things. However he arrived at his view be it religious dogma or cold logic is not really relevant, the end result is his opinion and it is on that which he is being judged. Maybe I missed a comment in the thread that said his religion should disqualify him serving as an MP or that he should not be allowed to have his view but i can't see it. Certainly the post you quoted does not deny JRM anything, it just describes his view as a cruel one, which to my mind is a fair enough comment. Whilst we are on cruel decisions I would like to take a quick look at the voting record of JRM. Whilst I don't disagree with him on everything his overall voting record is one of an absolute clearing in the woods. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, Straggler said: I don't recall anyone denying JRM his view, I just saw a bunch of people allowing him to express it and finding it objectionable. Disagreeing with a view and denying people from it are very different things. However he arrived at his view be it religious dogma or cold logic is not really relevant, the end result is his opinion and it is on that which he is being judged. Maybe I missed a comment in the thread that said his religion should disqualify him serving as an MP or that he should not be allowed to have his view but i can't see it. Certainly the post you quoted does not deny JRM anything, it just describes his view as a cruel one, which to my mind is a fair enough comment. Whilst we are on cruel decisions I would like to take a quick look at the voting record of JRM. Whilst I don't disagree with him on everything his overall voting record is one of an absolute clearing in the woods. I said PM , as I didn't believe we've ever had a Catholic PM , there may (or may not) be a law against it but constituently it would be difficult ...Blair famously converted after he left office don't know if that's a coincidence or just he couldn't be arsed when he was PM but then saying that a quick Google suggests that May is a Catholic , though subsequent answers suggest she isn't Mogg's opinion appears to be clouded by religion , which is the point I was making , I don't think I was denying anyone an opinion ? or finding it objectionable ? ( I don't agree with him fwiw) ... I was merely asking if his religious belief says I don't agree with Abortion , and people find it abhorrent , at what point do we say I find this part of this religion abhorrent ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 47 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Could be straying off piste, but I'm not aware of any religion that sets down abortion for foetus of a particular sex? Other than scientology I don't think the kit existed when most of the books were written. Yes, fashion covers people imposing fashions on religions. It also covers spurious economic reasons dressed up as religion. Whilst I'm sure it doesn't say in the Bible /Quran etc you should abort a child if you know it's going to be a girl , it's enough of an issue that "Religious groups" have repeatedly spoken out on it ... More than 25 organisations including the Muslim Women's Network, the Hindu Council and the Sikh Council said that they have witnessed at "first hand" the pressure that women come under to abort daughters. They say in their letter:"We want women who have been or are in danger of being coerced into sex-selective abortion in the UK, particularly in communities where there still exists a preference for a son Communities , kinda strays into Sarah Champion territory though ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted September 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted September 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I said PM , as I didn't believe we've ever had a Catholic PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 6, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted September 6, 2017 On 9/4/2017 at 20:49, darrenm said: Momentum people seem very confident it's real. I thought it was a send up at first but they wouldn't be taking the Mick so much if it was just a troll. Activate or whatever is real (if incompetent) but that video is not real. It's a parody/spoof/fake news/ call it what you will. There are quite a few give aways in there is you look closely enough. The use of 60s and 70s phrases in the 1980s, the £10 notes are photocopied not real old tenners. The "old film" noise/artifacts are an effect added on, not some kind of relic from converting old cine tape to digital. Everyone smoking tabs (again, like in the 60s / 70s) Even the drainpipe and brickwork are post 80s. It's just a mock up done by someone who wasn't "actually there, Man" and so knows no better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, blandy said: Activate or whatever is real (if incompetent) but that video is not real. It's a parody/spoof/fake news/ call it what you will. There are quite a few give aways in there is you look closely enough. The use of 60s and 70s phrases in the 1980s, the £10 notes are photocopied not real old tenners. The "old film" noise/artifacts are an effect added on, not some kind of relic from converting old cine tape to digital. Everyone smoking tabs (again, like in the 60s / 70s) Even the drainpipe and brickwork are post 80s. It's just a mock up done by someone who wasn't "actually there, Man" and so knows no better. Whole thing definitely trolling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 2 hours ago, tonyh29 said: as it was the subject matter today , is abortion that strong an issue to turn voters away in droves from him (in the unlikely event he was leader) ? when Joe Public goes into the box , what % will have abortion as their burning issue that prevents them voting for him .. of course coupled with other issues that could make him unpalatable for an electorate , but as we've seen with Corbyn , the public don't seem to care that you are a opportunistic charlatan if you say enough empty promises that are popular It's happening rather later than I thought, but it appears we're finally getting the American culture wars, so I wouldn't bet against it. I suppose it depends whether he views abortion in the Augustinian 'I hate it but I don't want to legislate against it' sense or if it's going to be his first order of business as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: Whilst I'm sure it doesn't say in the Bible /Quran etc you should abort a child if you know it's going to be a girl , it's enough of an issue that "Religious groups" have repeatedly spoken out on it ... Yes, so I think you’re agreeing with me. It isn’t in the original versions of the various books, but fashion and coercion and power grabs and the likes have tagged it on to religions and on to some cultural mores. There’s not much you can do about uneducated psychos telling their uneducated followers to kill babies. You’d imagine an innate common sense and decency would see that off quite quickly. But sadly it doesn’t. I say there’s not much you can do about it. I suppose we could educate people. Really complex deeply intellectual education. Something like, ‘if someone says kill your baby girls, it is probably best not to really’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted September 6, 2017 2 hours ago, tonyh29 said: I assume by fashion you meant religious grounds , which was what the law was trying to prevent which is interesting to a degree , MP's voted against blocking abortion on religious grounds yet in that interview Mogg stated he was a practising Catholic (which probably rules him out of being PM anyway) and thus is expressing a view based on his religious view Now , we here on VT have our views around religion and people that live by an outdated view and imaginary deities , but there are still some people who live by religion , if we deny Mogg his religious views , should we deny muslims or Hindu's theirs ? etc etc Tony Bliar says Hi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, bickster said: Tony Bliar says Hi not you as well Blair converted to Catholicism AFTER he was forced out of number 10 ... he may have had some leanings in that direction prior to this but he wasn't a catholic when he was PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 2 hours ago, tonyh29 said: I said PM , as I didn't believe we've ever had a Catholic PM , there may (or may not) be a law against it but constituently it would be difficult ...Blair famously converted after he left office don't know if that's a coincidence or just he couldn't be arsed when he was PM but then saying that a quick Google suggests that May is a Catholic , though subsequent answers suggest she isn't Mogg's opinion appears to be clouded by religion , which is the point I was making , I don't think I was denying anyone an opinion ? or finding it objectionable ? ( I don't agree with him fwiw) ... I was merely asking if his religious belief says I don't agree with Abortion , and people find it abhorrent , at what point do we say I find this part of this religion abhorrent ... That last bit is easy to answer. I say it now. There are huge parts of the Catholic Church that I find disturbing and require calling out. Speaking up against the church has improved the world more than the invention of any single thing you care to mention. If people didn't call out the church as either abhorrent or simply wrong we would have charts in school with the sun happily spinning around the earth, dinosaurs would have roamed the earth 10000 years ago and children would be getting systematically abused by priests all over the world. Calling out any religion for being abhorrent where it's teachings are abhorrent is no different to calling out a political party for the same thing. Just because it is a religion does not exclude it from criticism. Again this does not exclude the religious from any process, but it does help form my opinion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 6, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted September 6, 2017 4 hours ago, Jon said: Jez/Labour are incredibly popular As this is the baby chompers thread, I'll ask the question in relation to the chompers - If what you say is true, Jon, then why didn't they win the election, instead of losing it. Why did they get fewer votes than the chompers? I think they're only "incredibly popular" in the context of a "who thought those losers would get that many votes?" kind of way. Even now, with all the utter calamity of the Tories and Brexit eff ups and rising inflation and economic slip backs, they're still no more popular/unpopular than the baby eaters. Corbyn shows up as a net disapproval rating (as do May and Cable). None of that is to say that with a subsection of people, Corbyn/Labour aren't very popular, but bluntly the public at large is not enamoured of politicians or parties full stop, I'd say. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, choffer said: Kind of what we said about Trump. I don't think we have the same number of absolute loons (as a % of GP). I'm throwing my support behind Mongchops for this reason. If they can make him leader and we get GE within 12 months, the Tories could be obliterated. This is proper bat-shit, sky-fairy stuff and we aren't the USA in that respect. Edited September 6, 2017 by wazzap24 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted September 6, 2017 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: not you as well Blair converted to Catholicism AFTER he was forced out of number 10 ... he may have had some leanings in that direction prior to this but he wasn't a catholic when he was PM Oh come on... he was kissing the Pope's ring during the majority of his tenure, it was the worst kept secret in Parliament. Just because he didn't come out and say it whilst he was PM, the whole world knew Apart from you obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted September 6, 2017 48 minutes ago, wazzap24 said: I don't think we have the same number of absolute loons (as a % of GP). I'm throwing my support behind Mongchops for this reason. If they can make him leader and we get GE within 12 months, the Tories could be obliterated. This is proper bat-shit, sky-fairy stuff and we aren't the USA in that respect. Just talking about this with the missus in the car, I'd join the Tory Party just to get him elected. He'd set them back years I really hope the Tories are that far detached from reality to elect him 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 3 hours ago, bickster said: Oh come on... he was kissing the Pope's ring during the majority of his tenure, it was the worst kept secret in Parliament. Just because he didn't come out and say it whilst he was PM, the whole world knew Apart from you obviously That would be the catholic PM who legalised homosexual civil unions and gay adoptions. Whilst championing stem-cell research ... fact is he wasn't a catholic PM ... it doesn't seem to be any law that says we can't have one but it's all rather complicated it would seem ....whether the public give a fig I couldn't say but as Campbell once famously told him "We don't do God " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jon said: He'd be the biggest electoral disaster to hit the Tories in almost forever. This ain't Murica for one. Jez/Labour are incredibly popular for two. People really didn't want Billary for three, which gave Trumpton the 'in' that he needed. 317 - 262. Corbyn has been leader of one of the most ineffective oppositions in Labour's history. He was there when Brexit happened, when our markets turned sour, when Scotland almost voted to leave the UK and when the Tories signed a deal with the DUP. What did he do about it? Diddly squat. Corbyn is popular with 18-30 year olds, said people make a lot of noise on the interwebs. Labour as a unit is not even capable of gaining ground on a party that is driving a car over a cliff while said car is rigged to explode. He's been leader of Labour for 2 years now - he's achieved absolutely nothing but dividing his own party to the betterment of the babychompers. Edited September 6, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 15 hours ago, magnkarl said: 317 - 262. Corbyn has been leader of one of the most ineffective oppositions in Labour's history. He was there when Brexit happened, when our markets turned sour, when Scotland almost voted to leave the UK and when the Tories signed a deal with the DUP. What did he do about it? Diddly squat. Corbyn is popular with 18-30 year olds, said people make a lot of noise on the interwebs. Labour as a unit is not even capable of gaining ground on a party that is driving a car over a cliff while said car is rigged to explode. He's been leader of Labour for 2 years now - he's achieved absolutely nothing but dividing his own party to the betterment of the babychompers. Not sure about your last sentence, as he no doubt cost the Tories their majority. Doesn't mean Corbyn isn't still a loser himself, as the people of the UK rather marvellously created a result in the GE where pretty much every party lost. As for Rees-Mogg, he won't be leader. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted September 8, 2017 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted September 8, 2017 More power grabs coming. The Tories are attempting to change Commons committee selection rules, which currently mandate a committee is representative of the Commons proportions, to instead give the Government a majority in odd numbered committees and evenly matched in even numbered committees (except any public bill committee, which tend to be rather important...) So basically a minority zombie government is trying to change the rules so they have the benefits of a majority more or less. This government is evil. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts