Michael118 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Godders said: So, those of you convinced we wouldn't have been relegated if we moved to get big Sam in, still feel that way in light of these rumours?! Yes from me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfingers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: I would suggest that some genuinely aren't aware that negotiations take place as we keep seeing comments questioning why Gana has a mooted £7m release clause, or comments saying it was stupid of the club to put an £8m release clause in Delph's new contract. "Who's stupid idea was that. It should have been at least twice that..." for instance. The Delph situation is entirely different and quite rare. Gana is not Delph. When people talk about understanding negotiations, they need to understand the difference between being in the driving seat (a la Delph) and being pretty keen to join a club in the English PL. The fact of the matter is that whoever accepted this low release clause has f###ed up-Lets stop suggesting anything otherwise. The whole transfer/signing up set up 12 months ago was appalling and it is very rare for release clauses to be implemented that are lower than the fee initially paid out. Assuming of course that we did actually pay more than the figure in the release clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Butterfingers said: The Delph situation is entirely different and quite rare. Gana is not Delph. When people talk about understanding negotiations, they need to understand the difference between being in the driving seat (a la Delph) and being pretty keen to join a club in the English PL. The fact of the matter is that whoever accepted this low release clause has f###ed up-Lets stop suggesting anything otherwise. The whole transfer/signing up set up 12 months ago was appalling and it is very rare for release clauses to be implemented that are lower than the fee initially paid out. Assuming of course that we did actually pay more than the figure in the release clause. I think you underestimate the number of options an average-to-decent midfield player has. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfingers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: Because Gana goes and signs for another team in that case. How do you not get this? *Edit - Gana doesn't sign for Aston Villa in the first place. You're confusing getting rid of players we don't want to keep, with retaining players we don't want to leave. After relegation, if we inserted a £15m release clause for someone reasonably successful like Gana, not as many clubs would bid for him, if any, perhaps leaving the player with fewer options. Solution - he doesn't sign that contract in the first place. With a £7m (if that is the case) release clause, if the player does his job over the season but the shit still hits the fan, the player knows there will be options for him. The Villa contact becomes something he's more willing to sign in the first place. Get what? If Gana had any kind of equal offers, he would not have signed for us so early in the window-Do you not understand that? It is similar to some of our targets this summer-They are waiting for other offers that may or may not come to fruition. I'm not confusing anything-I said I'd be happy with £12 million for the pair of them. The point is (which seems to continually fly over your head) is that there was no pressure to implement such a low release clause. Do you really, in your wildest of dreams think an extra million on a release clause would have put the kybosh on the deal? Think about what you're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted July 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted July 20, 2016 I can't imagine Gueye's agent said "we want a £7m relegation release clause" and the team tasked with signing players just turned round and said "yeah, sure". It will have been part of a bigger piece, even something as basic as this as an example: Villa: "If we get relegated, your clients' wages will reduce by 50%" Agent: "This is acceptable, but only if we have a relegation release clause inserted." Villa: "OK, we'll have a release clause the same as the price we paid for the player - £9m" Agent: "No - he'll be in a lower league and less desirable; plus his wages will be vastly reduced. 50% of wages, how about 50% of the initial transfer fee as a clause?" Villa: "That's too low. How about £8m?" Agent: "£7m". etc. etc. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfingers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: I think you underestimate the number of options an average-to-decent midfield player has. So why did he sign for the side who survived relegation by the skin of its teeth for the 4th successive season? At such an early stage in the window as well? I think It is you who underestimates/fails to grasp things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Butterfingers said: So why did he sign for the side who survived relegation by the skin of its teeth for the 4th successive season? At such an early stage in the window as well? I think It is you who underestimates/fails to grasp things. Probably because we negotiated a contract that he was happy to sign. I'm guessing in no small part to the flexibility in the event of us going down. What's your reason for why he picked us over Southampton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Butterfingers said: Get what? If Gana had any kind of equal offers, he would not have signed for us so early in the window-Do you not understand that? It is similar to some of our targets this summer-They are waiting for other offers that may or may not come to fruition. I'm not confusing anything-I said I'd be happy with £12 million for the pair of them. The point is (which seems to continually fly over your head) is that there was no pressure to implement such a low release clause. Do you really, in your wildest of dreams think an extra million on a release clause would have put the kybosh on the deal? Think about what you're saying. You really think we just stuck a release clause in willy-nilly because there was no competition for his signature? You think other clubs can't bid equally early? By your logic, every player that moves early on in the transfer window is only wanted by the club they signed for? I have no idea who we competed with for Gana's signature, but I'm will to bet we were up against someone. Same with Richards. Same with Tshibola and Elphick. Same an Man U and Zlatan. Dwight Gayle at Newcastle.... Just because it's early in the window does not mean negotiations with multiples clubs have not been on-going. Point is, there must have been some compromise in the face of other offers for the contacts to be geared such as they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, Butterfingers said: So why did he sign for the side who survived relegation by the skin of its teeth for the 4th successive season? At such an early stage in the window as well? I think It is you who underestimates/fails to grasp things. Perhaps because of the good deal we offered? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, bobzy said: I enjoy an argument! But if you don't want one, maybe don't resort to calling people 10 year olds? I can't imagine Gueye's agent said "we want a £7m relegation release clause" and the team tasked with signing players just turned round and said "yeah, sure". It will have been part of a bigger piece, even something as basic as this as an example: Villa: "If we get relegated, your clients' wages will reduce by 50%" Agent: "This is acceptable, but only if we have a relegation release clause inserted." Villa: "OK, we'll have a release clause the same as the price we paid for the player - £9m" Agent: "No - he'll be in a lower league and less desirable; plus his wages will be vastly reduced. 50% of wages, how about 50% of the initial transfer fee as a clause?" Villa: "That's too low. How about £8m?" Agent: "£7m". etc. etc. This seems like a very crude but probably very accurate description of the negotiation process. I don't see why any club would a release clause of any description or a player would want a wage drop. I assume that they would want to dictate the fee (as much as possible) that they receive for the player in the even of wanting rid / player wanting out. Release clauses are pushed for by the agent and wage drops by the club what they agree on is entirely up to them. And the above seems reasonable. 2 minutes ago, Butterfingers said: So why did he sign for the side who survived relegation by the skin of its teeth for the 4th successive season? Maybe he wanted to get settled in to the club and be in the best position to advance his career further - thus signed early. Maybe he thought that he would get more game time here and that's why he signed. Maybe he fancied the challenge of leading a midfield which has been relatively unsuccessful recently. Maybe the contract was the most lucrative that he was offered. Who bloody knows? Nobody can really answer this question except the player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Straggler Posted July 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted July 20, 2016 I had to scroll back up to the top of the page to check I hadn't clicked on he wrong thread. This is the Richards thread right? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfingers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 8 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said: This seems like a very crude but probably very accurate description of the negotiation process. I don't see why any club would a release clause of any description or a player would want a wage drop. I assume that they would want to dictate the fee (as much as possible) that they receive for the player in the even of wanting rid / player wanting out. Release clauses are pushed for by the agent and wage drops by the club what they agree on is entirely up to them. And the above seems reasonable. Maybe he wanted to get settled in to the club and be in the best position to advance his career further - thus signed early. Maybe he thought that he would get more game time here and that's why he signed. Maybe he fancied the challenge of leading a midfield which has been relatively unsuccessful recently. Maybe the contract was the most lucrative that he was offered. Who bloody knows? Nobody can really answer this question except the player. It's ironic that you don't know why he signed yet in the same post you think you know a "pretty accurate description" of the negotiations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfingers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 14 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Probably because we negotiated a contract that he was happy to sign. I'm guessing in no small part to the flexibility in the event of us going down. What's your reason for why he picked us over Southampton? Same as my reason for why he picked us over Man City I have no evidence whatsoever that Southampton offered him a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted July 20, 2016 Dude, I don't know how you're not getting it. We either sign Gana with a £7m relegation release clause or we don't sign Gana at all. Because Gana said so. There is **** all else to it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, Butterfingers said: It's ironic that you don't know why he signed yet in the same post you think you know a "pretty accurate description" of the negotiations? "seems" and "probably" are not concrete claims of knowledge are they? I'm not claiming anything. I was replying to the original post when I said "This seems like a very crude but probably very accurate description of the negotiation process". I then gave my rough opinion of what I think happens. Again never claimed to know anything. Followed by possible reasons why he wanted to come here - in response to your quote. Maybe I should have split my responses in order to make it a little bit simpler for you to understand what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 13 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Dude, I don't know how you're not getting it. We either sign Gana with a £7m relegation release clause or we don't sign Gana at all. Because Gana said so. There is **** all else to it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfingers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 17 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Dude, I don't know how you're not getting it. We either sign Gana with a £7m relegation release clause or we don't sign Gana at all. Because Gana said so. There is **** all else to it. Dude Can you provide me the evidence that Gana wouldn't sign without that release clause in place? I'll get it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, Butterfingers said: Dude Can you provide me the evidence that Gana wouldn't sign without that release clause in place? I'll get it then. The fact that it is there at all. Why would the club put it in otherwise when it is detrimental to them? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 The club has done some stupid things in the past but putting in release clauses that equate to less than what we paid for the player for no reason is crazy, even for Randolph's Aston Villa. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 30 minutes ago, Butterfingers said: Dude Can you provide me the evidence that Gana wouldn't sign without that release clause in place? I'll get it then. Dude, where's my car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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