AlwaysAVFC Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal. That would be a bit daft as we could sign him up to a pre contract in Jan for nothing. As mentioned by others, he could only sign a pre contract with foreign teams. Although that's not to say he couldn't Unofficially agree something with a premier league club. Though against the rules, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanpabloangel18 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. We haven't done this to assess him and get him cheaper. It happened because his agent messed us around and it was late when the deal was back on. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal. Or if a number of clubs meet Utd's asking price for him in January then he would have his pick of those teams. And what I'm saying is, given that he'd have to have played fairly well to be wanted by a number of teams, we're probably not going to be high on the list (especially given that he's already displayed concerns about coming here). Alternatively, he doesn't do well, and he goes somewhere on a free at the end of the season - the only chance it's us is if he's been largely crap. Rejoice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 5, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2014 If Wikipedia ever wants an perfect example to illustrate the 'glass half/full glass half empty' concept, I'd point them to this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 At the end of day, it gets dark. But also, we're in pole position to sign him perm no matter what's gone on. He's a villa player now and if he settles well, makes friends and enjoys his football then he'll want to stay, simple as in my opinion. Oh, also we'd need to not get relegated, obvo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LxYoungAVFC Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I want to hear him say how proud he is to play here in the standard interview with jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 8, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2014 I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal. That would be a bit daft as we could sign him up to a pre contract in Jan for nothing. As mentioned by others, he could only sign a pre contract with foreign teams. Although that's not to say he couldn't Unofficially agree something with a premier league club. Though against the rules, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. The further problem, is everyone could sign him. If he has a good few months here then we won't be in much of a position to sign him. Someone like Everton will come back in for him and he'd go there (who wouldn't at this particular moment in time?) The reason we've agreed a fee, like I said before, is for exclusivity. If we "sign" him in January, we're basically pretending that we signed him permanently last month. THat's the easiest way to look at it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 To be fair though if we have a decent few months and Cleverly is a significant part of that then the difference between ourselves and Everton is unlikely to be all that great. Say we were 9th, Everton 7th and Cleverly is in form, back in England squad and being lauded. Would he want to stay where things were going well or move to Everton and compete with Ross Barkley for a place in the team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 8, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) To be fair though if we have a decent few months and Cleverly is a significant part of that then the difference between ourselves and Everton is unlikely to be all that great. Say we were 9th, Everton 7th and Cleverly is in form, back in England squad and being lauded. Would he want to stay where things were going well or move to Everton and compete with Ross Barkley for a place in the team? Or say Everton are 4th and Cleverley hasn't made the england squad yet? And Everton can offer him more money? And we're bottom half? Pessimistic way of looking at it, but it's entirely possible. The current deal means we don't have to worry about that. Edited September 8, 2014 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Is it actually confirmed we have a agreed a fee then? Think I missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMajority Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) Is it actually confirmed we have a agreed a fee then? Think I missed that. http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~4116690,00.html New Aston Villa midfielder Tom Cleverley has hailed the influence of Champions League winning midfielders Paul Lambert and Roy Keane in his decision to join the club on a season-long loan deal from Manchester United, with an option to make the move permanent. Edited September 8, 2014 by SilentMajority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted September 8, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2014 I've never really understood the "option to make permanent" clause. Is a fee already agreed? Have we already agreed personal terms with the player? If we want him but Man UTD don't want to sell, can they reject a bid or are they forced to accept it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troon_villan Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Questions I would also like answered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 8, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2014 It will depend on what the "option" is. Could be anything really. But I think most common is an agreed fee that you can pay if you want the player, or "first refusal" so you get first chance to sign him if you want him but still need to negotiate the fee. I don't think any of us know what our option consists of. But I think because we apparently had agreed a fee with United before it all broke down that the generally accepted definition of our option is that we'd put the transfer through in january as it stood before it broke down. Don't know how concrete that is, but seems a pretty reasonable explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I still think we would be mad to pay any money for him in Jan if we could get him for nothing in the summer I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal. That would be a bit daft as we could sign him up to a pre contract in Jan for nothing. As mentioned by others, he could only sign a pre contract with foreign teams. Although that's not to say he couldn't Unofficially agree something with a premier league club. Though against the rules, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. Apologies. I still think we would be mad to pay a fee in January when we could pick him up for nothing in the summer. Assuming another club doesn't come in for him in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I still think we would be mad to pay any money for him in Jan if we could get him for nothing in the summer I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal. That would be a bit daft as we could sign him up to a pre contract in Jan for nothing. As mentioned by others, he could only sign a pre contract with foreign teams. Although that's not to say he couldn't Unofficially agree something with a premier league club. Though against the rules, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. Apologies. I still think we would be mad to pay a fee in January when we could pick him up for nothing in the summer. Assuming another club doesn't come in for him in the meantime. There is the difference, Cleverley would not join us on a free as he would more likely get a better deal elsewhere. With a fee being agreed we have a chance of persuading him in Jan, whereas if we left it to a Bosman, i wouldn't fancy our chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted September 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2014 Personally, I'm not really bothered about the exact content of the contract and the options, clauses etc that may or may not form part of the agreement that brought him here. In reality we aren't likely to know the details unless he stays/signs in which case you would have to think that his loan has gone well and we are getting a decent player. Given the financial restraints and limitations at the club over the last few years and the fact we are currently up for sale you would have to believe that any agreement will be rather frugal on our part. The days of throwing money around are long gone. So whatever the nature of the agreement, both Lerner and Lambert must think that we got a good deal. Now that doesn't say a lot with Lerner, I don't have any faith in him or his judgement but I do in Lambert. He has in my opinion used our money far more responsibly than the managers who went before him and has almost without exception got good value on players when spending reasonable fee's as opposed to his cheaper gambles. So all I'm interested in is the contribution of the player on the pitch in the coming weeks and months, that will dictate one way or another what happens next. Either way I don't really see that we can lose. The absolute worse case scenario is that he does well and opts to go somewhere else, in which case we will have benefited from having him and just the cost of his wages. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannockVillan Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I think the question is whether we have agreed terms with Cleverley and i would imagine the answer to that is no. We'd already agreed a fee with Utd. Kinda makes the option not worth the paper...etc That said we have him until atleast january and if no one comes in for him in Jan then Utd won't trigger the recall clause. If someone does and we don't agree terms with Cleverley he may then be off in January otherwise he'll wait out his contract and see what's on the table then. It makes no sense for him to agree terms with us now. On a free trasnfer someone will pick him up and pay him well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 So all I'm interested in is the contribution of the player on the pitch in the coming weeks and months, that will dictate one way or another what happens next. Either way I don't really see that we can lose. The absolute worse case scenario is that he does well and opts to go somewhere else, in which case we will have benefited from having him and just the cost of his wages. This is all that matters now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysAVFC Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I still think we would be mad to pay any money for him in Jan if we could get him for nothing in the summer I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal.That would be a bit daft as we could sign him up to a pre contract in Jan for nothing. As mentioned by others, he could only sign a pre contract with foreign teams. Although that's not to say he couldn't Unofficially agree something with a premier league club. Though against the rules, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. Apologies. I still think we would be mad to pay a fee in January when we could pick him up for nothing in the summer. Assuming another club doesn't come in for him in the meantime. There is the difference, Cleverley would not join us on a free as he would more likely get a better deal elsewhere. With a fee being agreed we have a chance of persuading him in Jan, whereas if we left it to a Bosman, i wouldn't fancy our chances. If we wouldn't be in contention at the end of the season, I don't see why we would in any better of a position to persuade him in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I still think we would be mad to pay any money for him in Jan if we could get him for nothing in the summer I think the thing people are missing is that it's much better to get him on loan for a season than to waste £8m on him and be stuck with him forever. At least this way we can assess him properly and put in a sensible bid/contract offer for him when he's on a free next summer if we want. I'd imagine everything is in place for us to pay the agreed price in january to make it a permanent deal. That would be a bit daft as we could sign him up to a pre contract in Jan for nothing. As mentioned by others, he could only sign a pre contract with foreign teams. Although that's not to say he couldn't Unofficially agree something with a premier league club. Though against the rules, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. Apologies. I still think we would be mad to pay a fee in January when we could pick him up for nothing in the summer. Assuming another club doesn't come in for him in the meantime. There is the difference, Cleverley would not join us on a free as he would more likely get a better deal elsewhere. With a fee being agreed we have a chance of persuading him in Jan, whereas if we left it to a Bosman, i wouldn't fancy our chances. If we wouldn't be in contention at the end of the season, I don't see why we would in any better of a position to persuade him in January. We have an option to persuade him in January thats the point, it's putting in a first refusal. I think if he refuses to do a deal in Jan with us, I think you will see him heading back up to Manchester and us targeting someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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